How to bid vague work??

[copper123]

I have been reading this forum for awhile now, and its amazing the amount of talent and job experience that gets gathered into one place. I am looking for some advice:
I work and live in a small area that has as military base that is fairly close. My electrical business is very small and I could never get away with charging 2500.00 for a 200 amp overhead service that has been discussed recently. I live in a small rural area, and there are enough unlicensed men that will do electrical work for little or nothing. Keep in mind, I am not complaining as I also experience a country life that is really what I am all about. Anyhow, the local military base has gotten a breath of new life lately. It has been moth balled for quite a few years and now they are going back in and cleaning it up. The military has brought on board a native corporation that has the maintenance contract to do all the repairs and upgrade work. Any work that they can?t do, they sub-contract it out to the local contractors. The native corporation is really only native in name only. I have not seen any Native Americans doing work at all. . What I am having problems with is in the area of the sub-contract work that they are bidding out. They are really inexperienced with operations and instead of putting out a decent scope of work, you are handing a hand drawing or something close to that with a bunch of hand written chicken scratches. They never specify anything. Is it EMT, Mc cable, ect. They have no concept of the NEC and violations run rampant. Also, products are not required to be made in America. Today I looked at a messy job that just said, demo conduits in rooms, put in outlets and new drop in lights. Install a camera at the door with a monitor at the desk and a magnetic door lock. I ask them for specs and they say, that is for you to decide what is best. How many outlets? What locations? How many circuits? Demo to what point? The bids are crazy, and it?s like the wild, wild, west. For me, I always ask lots of questions, do a lot of research, and do cut sheets, ect. And try to provide a product that will feed the needs of the end-user. Each contractor is unique and has his own style of doing something so all the bids are never apples to apples. I might spec a camera that is American made and is of good quality. Another contractor may buy something off the net. Usually, the bid just comes down to the bottom line who is cheepest and they dont disect each bid for what is included. Another trick they pull is job estimating/engineering. Since they don?t have the experience to estimate what a job will cost, they ask for three bids. Myself and others will do the walk through, do the research, and put out the effort, ect. Submit a bid, and then find out that they went ahead and did the work in-house. Basically, I think they just find the low number. Reverse engineering the bid and then they charge the government that number for the work. Since they have a maintance contract, they are not required to pay Gov. scale on workers wages. Also, the workers don?t carry electrical fitness cards and I don?t think they even have an Electrical Administrator. Working for the goverment sure has its perks! So they take the contractors number who has enginerred the job for them, and go with it. I have heard its legal, but I am not so sure it moral. Anyhow, the troubling thing about all of it is the fact that we finely have some work in the area that might actually pay and make it worth the effort to have been legal and honest for all this time, and then have a corporation that could care less. It seems like in order to win any work, you have to install junk, do it fast, and not really care. That is just not what I want to stand for, and I don?t think we as taxpayers should get that kind of service. So how do you folks bid scope documents that are completely vague, ect. Do you guys run into this all the time as well? Or do you usually get handed something that has forethought and some sort of specification on it. I am almost ready to just say the heck with it, and walk away. I may not make a lot of money, but my installations are always clean, safe and to code. Thanks for the rant. I guess I got fired up after I read the eloquent piece by Pierre in the residential service topic.

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: How to bid vague work??

copper,
you have two choices!

1)walk away from it.

2)compete with the others by installing junk with a lousy -- sloppy installation!

i have recently retired, but some fifteen years ago g.c.'s stopped issuing e.c.'s a full set of plans to bid from? they would issue only the electrical portion of the plans! when your bidding a large office interior, you really should have an idea of all the plans with ceiling heigths and outlet locations, plus other mechanical drawings for equipment locations etc.. in an attempt to save money(is what they said)they stopped issuing these plans. i was the only contractor who would then go by their office to review the other full set of plans. actually, the less you know about a job the cheaper your price will be. the idea that they were saving $5.00 on information that could cost the electrical contractor $500.00 rubbed me the wrong way! i stopped working for g.c's not long after that and was happy and prosperous! i did a large security system at a coast guard base for the system's manufacturer about ten years ago. i too, was ammased at the workmanship of other electrical work found on the base!!! i first thought they did the work themselves. but then learnt it was contracted--no inspections or license requirements on the base. during the security system install we got to know the chain of command and they wanted us to bid on their work as it came up. after the third lost job i stopped by and looked at the past jobs. i would not lower myself to these standards! but who sets the standards --- the base commanding officer! i found out a burgler alarm contractor was doing the work. all they could say was "it works!"

i walked away!!!

 

[tshea]

Re: How to bid vague work??

Sounds like you have a Design/Build job.
1. Walk away--go hungry!

2. Bid it vague with enough $$ to CYA. Don't spec any wiring method. Say "code compliant." Once you figure out what they want give them a price. When they accept your number give them a scope of the work to be done.
"We are pleased to bid $XX,XXX.00 for electrical work as pointed out on walk through on 0/00/05."

3. Bid it like you want it. Talk to the decision maker and get more info. Is there a deadline on the bid date? Are they just using you as a price check?

Good luck!

 

[charlie b]

Re: How to bid vague work??

Would they accept the notion of a paid, 4-hour ?study? of the layout, with the deliverable of the study being a list of demolition and installation tasks? The list could then be used as the basis for their putting out a ?fair bid opportunity,? with all prospective bidders getting the same description of the scope of work. If any bid low and do a bad job, then the owner at least has the protection of a contract with a clear statement of the work. You may get the owner?s confidence just by making the suggestion. The owner may look at the work scope (that you were paid to develop), and just give you the job, without bidding.

My only other suggestion is to give a proposal that clearly spells out what is, and what is not included in the price. For example, state that you will demolish 25 outlets, but leave the conduit in the walls, and install 42 new light fixtures of a specific model number. That way, if the owner tells you later that there is more to demolish, or that a different fixture is preferred, you have a clear case for getting extra money for the job.

 

[copper123]

Re: How to bid vague work??

Thanks guys for the input. I really appreciate it. Charlie, good ideas. You sound like Steven Covey, with The Seven Habbits of Highly Effective People. He is always describing the Win, Win principle. On how you described how you would do a bid, that is what I have done. I have been been extremely clear and detail oriented. The only problem, and maybe this is just the cost of doing business is that it takes a tremedous amount of time. And then, it really rubs you wrong when they do it in house anyway!
Thanks for taking the time to read that long post, I just read it before writing this, a little long winded!

 

[peter]

Re: How to bid vague work??

Copper,
I am not an expert in this but I do have some first-hand observations about government [military] contracts.
One is that the NEC doesn't strictly apply. The local authority has no juristiction but may want permit fees just because...
However the govt. can and will go ape about various regulations. For instance, working on an off-base naval hotel, they were strict about a one journeyman per apprentice ratio. [That's why I worked there for four hours.] Also I spent two of those hours running back and forth getting an identity card and a car sticker.
You don't state your location, but I would expect that shabby work on a military base would not be tolerated. If it is, then -- as a favor to the military and us taxpayers -- a few pointed e-mails to Mr. Rumsfeld and some senators should get some results. Perhaps some pictures may help.
On the other hand, you mention "native Americans" and that could be the result of the EOE and political correctness thing. Government is strange.
~Peter

 

[bradleyelectric]

Re: How to bid vague work??

You stated that they are collecting your designs and doing it in house. That says enough to me as to wether I would waist any more of me time doing it for them. I would spend my energy if I wanted to spend anymore time on the project letting people know as in army corps of engineers, local politicians what is happening there and various violations. I'm to busy to do work for no pay. I bid work, but not with no hope of getting it.