On a 200 amp residential service.I have a back to back.Meter out side and 200a main breaker panel on the inside.I use pvc nipple between the wall.Iam a licensed journeyman in Florida been in the trade 18 years. Years ago an Inspector in town of Palm beach Made me take the 4th wire out of the nipple going to the main panel (the grounding electrode conductor)He mentioned something about paralleling it was not right because it could get a load on it.I used to always think going from the ground Rod or Rods with my # 4 through the meter can bonding lug and then to the bar on the main panel it was better.And I was taught that way by fellow workers.Anyways I did what the inspector said and for years I only take the #4 from the rods Directly to the meter can.And had no problems.Untill I move to Indiana last year.These guys in my company say Iam doing It wrong.they want to go to the panel with the gec from the rods then come back to the meter with the #4.I try to tell them what I was told and read article 250 over and over.To try to get the real answer to this.I do it the way they say because There paying my Bills.But I really would like some feed back.The way I read the code It says You can Hit the meter can Or the first disconnect whatever is more accessable .I don't see why you would do both and is it wrong To do both.The 3/0 neutral is the ground attached right to the can Of both???????please help
grounding electrode conductor
- Thread starter nascar87
- Start date
- Status
Re: grounding electrode conductor
Nascar87, you are correct that the GEC connection can be made in the meter can or the main. The problem is, some POCO's don't allow it for same stupid reason, and the local inspectors enforce this.
I have heard the argument that it must be accessible, and inside the meter can it isn't. Well, if this is the case what about the other conductors within the meter can? I guess we don't need to access them.
As far as taking a conductor to both the meter and the first main along with the Neutral and bond them at both locations, you will indeed have parallel conductors sharing the neutral current.
Roger
[ May 05, 2005, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
Nascar87, you are correct that the GEC connection can be made in the meter can or the main. The problem is, some POCO's don't allow it for same stupid reason, and the local inspectors enforce this.
I have heard the argument that it must be accessible, and inside the meter can it isn't. Well, if this is the case what about the other conductors within the meter can? I guess we don't need to access them.
As far as taking a conductor to both the meter and the first main along with the Neutral and bond them at both locations, you will indeed have parallel conductors sharing the neutral current.
Roger
[ May 05, 2005, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: grounding electrode conductor
250.24(A)(1) of the NEC states the GEC "connection shall be made at any accessible point from the load end of the service drop or service lateral to and including the terminal or bus to which the grounded service conductor is connected at the service disconnecting means.
This connection need only be made at one point. By the way, #6 is the largest required conductor to ground rods.
250.24(A)(1) of the NEC states the GEC "connection shall be made at any accessible point from the load end of the service drop or service lateral to and including the terminal or bus to which the grounded service conductor is connected at the service disconnecting means.
This connection need only be made at one point. By the way, #6 is the largest required conductor to ground rods.
Re: grounding electrode conductor
Yea I know we only need #6 but some times You gota go with the flow.these guys been with this company a long time and are good guys.I just have to give my 2 cents.My main concern I what the Inspector telling me about having parrell wires as my neutral and if the 3/0 comes loose You have a load On just the # 6.by the way I know I only need 2/0 cu also but they wana run 3/0
Yea I know we only need #6 but some times You gota go with the flow.these guys been with this company a long time and are good guys.I just have to give my 2 cents.My main concern I what the Inspector telling me about having parrell wires as my neutral and if the 3/0 comes loose You have a load On just the # 6.by the way I know I only need 2/0 cu also but they wana run 3/0
Re: grounding electrode conductor
Nascar87, the Grounded Conductor (neutral) should bond to the GEC at one location.
The first graphic below shows the parallel as discussed above, the second is correct.
Roger
[ May 05, 2005, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
Nascar87, the Grounded Conductor (neutral) should bond to the GEC at one location.
The first graphic below shows the parallel as discussed above, the second is correct.
Roger
[ May 05, 2005, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: grounding electrode conductor
Roger, wouldn't the use of a metallic nipple be the equivalent of the improper first drawing?
Roger, wouldn't the use of a metallic nipple be the equivalent of the improper first drawing?
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: grounding electrode conductor
There are a dozen different ways neutral current parallels on the line side of a service disconnecting means, hoever the code is not too concerned with that.
Some like myself would consider any current flowing on non-current carrying metallic parts as objectionable, however the code only seems to think that is a problem on the load side of the service.
There are a dozen different ways neutral current parallels on the line side of a service disconnecting means, hoever the code is not too concerned with that.
Some like myself would consider any current flowing on non-current carrying metallic parts as objectionable, however the code only seems to think that is a problem on the load side of the service.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: grounding electrode conductor
In the first drawing, a wire is in parallel with the grounded conductor and it would be in violation of 310.4. If the nipple were metallic conduit, the effect would be the same but it is a raceway instead of a conductor. The problem is that there is no practical way to eliminate the parallel path where a metallic conduit is used for the nipple.
In the first drawing, a wire is in parallel with the grounded conductor and it would be in violation of 310.4. If the nipple were metallic conduit, the effect would be the same but it is a raceway instead of a conductor. The problem is that there is no practical way to eliminate the parallel path where a metallic conduit is used for the nipple.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: grounding electrode conductor
Some like myself would consider any current flowing on non-current carrying metallic parts as objectionable
Bryan, I agree with you but the separation of the grounded and grounding conductors must be done somewhere. It has been done in the service equipment for over 100 years and everything on the line side is grounded the same way as in the NESC.
Consider first that the metering equipment is sometimes locked, sealed, and not considered service equipment. Now, do you want to move the point of separating the grounded and grounding conductors to the metering equipment along with the GEC?
Some like myself would consider any current flowing on non-current carrying metallic parts as objectionable
Bryan, I agree with you but the separation of the grounded and grounding conductors must be done somewhere. It has been done in the service equipment for over 100 years and everything on the line side is grounded the same way as in the NESC.
Consider first that the metering equipment is sometimes locked, sealed, and not considered service equipment. Now, do you want to move the point of separating the grounded and grounding conductors to the metering equipment along with the GEC?
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: grounding electrode conductor
AHHH but there is, run 4-wires all the way to the transformer.
See above.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: grounding electrode conductor
Sorry Wayne, we have to follow the NESC and rewiring America is not an option. You are now on my side of the service point.
Sorry Wayne, we have to follow the NESC and rewiring America is not an option. You are now on my side of the service point.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: grounding electrode conductor
What about requiring the connection to be made at the service point only? This would still put us in the meter enclosure for a lateral but at least all the drop installations would be taken care of...
What about requiring the connection to be made at the service point only? This would still put us in the meter enclosure for a lateral but at least all the drop installations would be taken care of...
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: grounding electrode conductor
Bryan, I don't see why that couldn't be done. Sounds to me like you now have another set of proposals for the 2008 NEC.
Bryan, I don't see why that couldn't be done. Sounds to me like you now have another set of proposals for the 2008 NEC.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: grounding electrode conductor
I see a lot of resistance to the meterpan as the point of connection.
I would think a proposal to keep the termination location requirement the same, but add that if the termination is in the service disconnect, that the wiring method from the meter enclosure to the service disconnect would be required to be nonmetallic.
Of course that would make a gazillion existing installations nonconforming and some authorities may want to understand why... this could lead to litigation nightmares which would probably nix the whole proposal...
I see a lot of resistance to the meterpan as the point of connection.
I would think a proposal to keep the termination location requirement the same, but add that if the termination is in the service disconnect, that the wiring method from the meter enclosure to the service disconnect would be required to be nonmetallic.
Of course that would make a gazillion existing installations nonconforming and some authorities may want to understand why... this could lead to litigation nightmares which would probably nix the whole proposal...
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: grounding electrode conductor
But look at all the electricians you would put to work
Darn!
But look at all the electricians you would put to work
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: grounding electrode conductor
Yep.
Yep.
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