Grounding electrode conductor (GEC) and equipment grounding conductor (EGC) in the same conduit

[Jps1006]

I have inherited an installation mess I want to try to correct. Residential 200-amp overhead service with a main breaker is located on the exterior of a garage. The 200-amp feeders run through a slab in PVC with no equipment grounding conductor to the panel in the basement. Currently there is an electrode grounding conductor that goes from the water meter to the panel with the panel bonding screw installed. Clearly this is wrong and the GEC needs to go to the first point of disconnect in the meter and the bonding screw in the panel should be removed. Of course this is all behind drywall in a high end finished basement.

I have a route to get the GEC to the meter using some existing underground PVC, but I will have to pull through the panel.
After I pull out the bonding screw, I'll install a ground buss and move the greens to it. I really don't think I can pull past the 200-amp feeder conductors in the PVC to add an equipment ground for the panel.

Can I pull my #4 GEC and #6 EGC through the same conduit?

 

[petersonra]

You can't have two gecs. One of them is likely a bonding conductor.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

You can't have two gecs. One of them is likely a bonding conductor.

he has a gec and a egc in the same conduit. I don't think that is an issue.

 

[infinity]

So the plan is to add both an EGC and a GEC to the existing PVC feeder conduit feeding the panel?

 

[retirede]

So the plan is to add both an EGC and a GEC to the existing PVC feeder conduit feeding the panel?

The way I read his post, he is adding a new pipe for the GEC and wants to run the EGC with it and not with the feeder conductors!

 

[Jps1006]

The way I read his post, he is adding a new pipe for the GEC and wants to run the EGC with it and not with the feeder conductors!

You are right retirede. I need to add a conduit to get out to the first point of disconnect for the GEC. I have little hope of adding the EGC to the existing feeder conduit, so was wondering if I'm Ok to add it to the GEC conduit.
Thanks for the input Dennis Alwon. I'm hoping it's not an issue.

 

[infinity]

You are right retirede. I need to add a conduit to get out to the first point of disconnect for the GEC. I have little hope of adding the EGC to the existing feeder conduit, so was wondering if I'm Ok to add it to the GEC conduit.
Thanks for the input Dennis Alwon. I'm hoping it's not an issue.

Since you've clarified that you'll be running the GEC and the EGC in a raceway separate from the feeder there is an issue. You cannot run the EGC in a separate raceway it must be run with the feeder conductors.

 

[shortcircuit2]

If you were under the 2020 NEC...230.85(3) might make this installation OK.

I have inherited an installation mess I want to try to correct. Residential 200-amp overhead service with a main breaker is located on the exterior of a garage. The 200-amp feeders run through a slab in PVC with no equipment grounding conductor to the panel in the basement. Currently there is an electrode grounding conductor that goes from the water meter to the panel with the panel bonding screw installed. Clearly this is wrong and the GEC needs to go to the first point of disconnect in the meter and the bonding screw in the panel should be removed. Of course this is all behind drywall in a high end finished basement.

I have a route to get the GEC to the meter using some existing underground PVC, but I will have to pull through the panel.
After I pull out the bonding screw, I'll install a ground buss and move the greens to it. I really don't think I can pull past the 200-amp feeder conductors in the PVC to add an equipment ground for the panel.

Can I pull my #4 GEC and #6 EGC through the same conduit?

If you were under the 2020 NEC...230.85(3) might make this installation OK.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If you were under the 2020 NEC...230.85(3) might make this installation OK.

How is 230.85 related to any of this? 300.3(B) is what is appropriate here.

Sorry my earlier response was a misunderstanding. I thought you were adding the grounding electrode conductor in with the other conductors. The equipment grounding conductor must be with the conductors of the circuit

B) Conductors of the Same Circuit.
All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).

 

[infinity]

How is 230.85 related to any of this? 300.3(B) is what is appropriate here.

Would it somehow be possible to make the existing disconnect an emergency disconnect and retain the 3-wire SEC's without an EGC?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Would it somehow be possible to make the existing disconnect an emergency disconnect and retain the 3-wire SEC's without an EGC?

Apparently that is why the emo disconnect was written into the code. Now I see where he was going with 230.85. Since there is a main disconnect already I am not sure how you can use that section.

 

[shortcircuit2]

Yes 2020 NEC 230.85(3) may allow the addition of the label...

EMERGENCY DISCONNECT
NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT

Then 3-wire SEU (or pvc conduit and 3 wires) would be permitted and the inside arrangement is the SERVICE DISCONNECT and the GEC can land there.

But he is in Illinois and what, they are on 2011?

 

[retirede]

But he is in Illinois and what, they are on 2011?

We’re on 2008 unless the municipality adopts newer. Some have.

 

[robertd]

Yes 2020 NEC 230.85(3) may allow the addition of the label...

EMERGENCY DISCONNECT
NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT

Then 3-wire SEU (or pvc conduit and 3 wires) would be permitted and the inside arrangement is the SERVICE DISCONNECT and the GEC can land there.

But he is in Illinois and what, they are on 2011?

>Residential 200-amp overhead service with a main breaker is located on the exterior of a garage.
Is the breaker part of the meter? If so the emergency disconnect would be a breaker. Can you use a break as the disconnect and have it not count as the first OCPD, and thus be the service disconnect?

 

[shortcircuit2]

230.85 is complicated and the most controversial new rule we are dealing with in the 2020 NEC, and there are a lot of details needed to apply the 3-subrules (1),(2) and (3)

Since the OP is on 2008...I won't delve deeper into the abyss.

Maybe the OP can eliminate the outside service disconnect and add a main to the inside panel? He did mention that the (3-wire) feeder wiring was in a conduit "under the structure" and is considered outside the building.

Is there a main in the panel in the basement?
Does the feeder wiring terminate "inside nearest the point of entrance" from the slab?

 

[Jps1006]

The adopted NEC varies by city around here. The house in question is in a 2017 jurisdiction with local amendments.
The meter has a 200-amp breaker in it. The panel in the basement has a main breaker. The feeder conduit leaves the meter as 2" IMC, runs under the garage slab 25' and then through a crawlspace for another 25'. It emerges as 3" PVC, but if you look into the conduit you can see a bell reducer of some sort from 4". The crawlspace is not practically accessible. The 3" PVC goes directly to a 200-amp breaker disconnect box. Then from that disconnect, 15' to a main breaker 200-amp panel. The GEC goes to the panel where there is a neutral bonding screw installed.

I assume this arrangement is the result of moving the original meter from the back of the house to the side (probably from putting on a deck or patio). They probably added the 200-amp disconnect box then, but never did anything with the ground. Then moved the meter again when the addition with the crawlspace and garage was put on.

Thanks for the input everyone. It seems to me the only practical solution to this is to see if I can pull through the existing magic conduit that goes through the crawl and slab and add GEC and EGC through that conduit.

Does this sound like busy work to satisfy a technically of the code? What type of scenario would leaving the existing arrangement be a real danger?

 

[Buck Parrish]

I have inherited an installation mess I want to try to correct. Residential 200-amp overhead service with a main breaker is located on the exterior of a garage. The 200-amp feeders run through a slab in PVC with no equipment grounding conductor to the panel in the basement. Currently there is an electrode grounding conductor that goes from the water meter to the panel with the panel bonding screw installed. Clearly this is wrong and the GEC needs to go to the first point of disconnect in the meter and the bonding screw in the panel should be removed. Of course this is all behind drywall in a high end finished basement.

I have a route to get the GEC to the meter using some existing underground PVC, but I will have to pull through the panel.
After I pull out the bonding screw, I'll install a ground buss and move the greens to it. I really don't think I can pull past the 200-amp feeder conductors in the PVC to add an equipment ground for the panel.

Can I pull my #4 GEC and #6 EGC through the same conduit?

Yes , just not solid conductors - NEC 310.3 (C)

 

[retirede]

The adopted NEC varies by city around here. The house in question is in a 2017 jurisdiction with local amendments.
The meter has a 200-amp breaker in it. The panel in the basement has a main breaker. The feeder conduit leaves the meter as 2" IMC, runs under the garage slab 25' and then through a crawlspace for another 25'. It emerges as 3" PVC, but if you look into the conduit you can see a bell reducer of some sort from 4". The crawlspace is not practically accessible. The 3" PVC goes directly to a 200-amp breaker disconnect box. Then from that disconnect, 15' to a main breaker 200-amp panel. The GEC goes to the panel where there is a neutral bonding screw installed.

I assume this arrangement is the result of moving the original meter from the back of the house to the side (probably from putting on a deck or patio). They probably added the 200-amp disconnect box then, but never did anything with the ground. Then moved the meter again when the addition with the crawlspace and garage was put on.

Thanks for the input everyone. It seems to me the only practical solution to this is to see if I can pull through the existing magic conduit that goes through the crawl and slab and add GEC and EGC through that conduit.

Does this sound like busy work to satisfy a technically of the code? What type of scenario would leaving the existing arrangement be a real danger?

The adopted NEC varies by city around here. The house in question is in a 2017 jurisdiction with local amendments.
The meter has a 200-amp breaker in it. The panel in the basement has a main breaker. The feeder conduit leaves the meter as 2" IMC, runs under the garage slab 25' and then through a crawlspace for another 25'. It emerges as 3" PVC, but if you look into the conduit you can see a bell reducer of some sort from 4". The crawlspace is not practically accessible. The 3" PVC goes directly to a 200-amp breaker disconnect box. Then from that disconnect, 15' to a main breaker 200-amp panel. The GEC goes to the panel where there is a neutral bonding screw installed.

I assume this arrangement is the result of moving the original meter from the back of the house to the side (probably from putting on a deck or patio). They probably added the 200-amp disconnect box then, but never did anything with the ground. Then moved the meter again when the addition with the crawlspace and garage was put on.

Thanks for the input everyone. It seems to me the only practical solution to this is to see if I can pull through the existing magic conduit that goes through the crawl and slab and add GEC and EGC through that conduit.

Does this sound like busy work to satisfy a technically of the code? What type of scenario would leaving the existing arrangement be a real danger?

The 3 wire feed from the garage was not compliant the day it was installed.

Can you remove the wires and re-pull with an EGC?