Stupid question.What if water spills in a continuous flow from a sink onto electric baseboard heater one foot from the sink.The other question is why I do not have to gfi electric heat in the bathroom and if I wanted to is there a gfi breaker made for 220 and if so how does it work???? please give me a few days to respond thanks..
GFI for bathroom heat
- Thread starter bond
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luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: GFI for bathroom heat
electricman2
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
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- Retired Electrical Contractor
Re: GFI for bathroom heat
Apparently, the code writers dont think GFI protection is needed for electric baseboard heaters. A heater that is properly installed will have all non current carrying metal parts bonded so that water falling on it would not present a hazard. 2 pole GFI breakers are available. They function the same as a single pole by comparing current in each ungrounded conductor.
Apparently, the code writers dont think GFI protection is needed for electric baseboard heaters. A heater that is properly installed will have all non current carrying metal parts bonded so that water falling on it would not present a hazard. 2 pole GFI breakers are available. They function the same as a single pole by comparing current in each ungrounded conductor.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: GFI for bathroom heat
I see a big difference between a receptacle outlet and a baseboard heater.
If you have 10 amps going through a hair dryer (i.e., current coming in from the hot leg, going through device, and leaving via the cold leg), and if you also have one half an amp going through the operator (i.e., going from the hot leg to the case of the device, into the hand of the person operating the device, through that person?s body into the floor, through dirt to the ground rod, up the ground rod to the main panel), then two things will happen: (1) The breaker will not trip, because it sees a total current of only 10.5 amps, and (2) The operator will die. The purpose of protecting the bathroom receptacle with a GFI is to terminate the event before harm comes to the operator.
In the scenario I described above, I chose a fault current of one half amp under the presumption of a high resistance leakage path internal to the hair dryer. There could conceivably be a similar leakage path in a baseboard heater. However, I cannot conceive of a scenario in which a person could come into contact with that heater, receive the same 1/2 amp shock, and be in danger of his or her life. There is a risk of a serious burn, but then contacting a running heater could give you a serious burn, even without a leakage path that sends current through your foot.
I think it is a matter of the code makers not being able to justify requiring a protective feature, without there being a high probability of an accident that would have serious consequences.
I see a big difference between a receptacle outlet and a baseboard heater.
If you have 10 amps going through a hair dryer (i.e., current coming in from the hot leg, going through device, and leaving via the cold leg), and if you also have one half an amp going through the operator (i.e., going from the hot leg to the case of the device, into the hand of the person operating the device, through that person?s body into the floor, through dirt to the ground rod, up the ground rod to the main panel), then two things will happen: (1) The breaker will not trip, because it sees a total current of only 10.5 amps, and (2) The operator will die. The purpose of protecting the bathroom receptacle with a GFI is to terminate the event before harm comes to the operator.
In the scenario I described above, I chose a fault current of one half amp under the presumption of a high resistance leakage path internal to the hair dryer. There could conceivably be a similar leakage path in a baseboard heater. However, I cannot conceive of a scenario in which a person could come into contact with that heater, receive the same 1/2 amp shock, and be in danger of his or her life. There is a risk of a serious burn, but then contacting a running heater could give you a serious burn, even without a leakage path that sends current through your foot.
I think it is a matter of the code makers not being able to justify requiring a protective feature, without there being a high probability of an accident that would have serious consequences.
physis
Senior Member
Re: GFI for bathroom heat
I don't disagree with anything that's been said. I personally like to use GFI protection around water. It's not very expensive. I find that most home owners, without scaring them to death, also like the idea. I usually GFI protect the whole bathroom from the load side of the GFCI receptacle. (I'm not saying that can be done with the heater). Bond, you don't have to, but if you want to GFI protect the heater that's ok too.
I don't disagree with anything that's been said. I personally like to use GFI protection around water. It's not very expensive. I find that most home owners, without scaring them to death, also like the idea. I usually GFI protect the whole bathroom from the load side of the GFCI receptacle. (I'm not saying that can be done with the heater). Bond, you don't have to, but if you want to GFI protect the heater that's ok too.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: GFI for bathroom heat
OK, let's reconsider the baseboard heater. Who among you would install one in the bathroom without grounding it? It is a fixed device and grounding (if done properly) is assured since it is not being held in the hands or being moved around. All of the portable devices are fed from a GFCI receptacle and a ground path is readily available. Where is the likelihood of a ground path for the heater? Even if you had a foot on the heater and a hand in the sink, the shock would pull your foot away before you had a fatal shock.
Because of the above argument, a body count doesn't exist to prove to CMP-2 that a hazard exists. Over the years, a multitude of arguments have been made to do this, to require that, or to prohibit the other. Most of these are turned down for lack of a body count.
OK, let's reconsider the baseboard heater. Who among you would install one in the bathroom without grounding it? It is a fixed device and grounding (if done properly) is assured since it is not being held in the hands or being moved around. All of the portable devices are fed from a GFCI receptacle and a ground path is readily available. Where is the likelihood of a ground path for the heater? Even if you had a foot on the heater and a hand in the sink, the shock would pull your foot away before you had a fatal shock.
Because of the above argument, a body count doesn't exist to prove to CMP-2 that a hazard exists. Over the years, a multitude of arguments have been made to do this, to require that, or to prohibit the other. Most of these are turned down for lack of a body count.
physis
Senior Member
Re: GFI for bathroom heat
I acctually had a halfway prepared statement for this because I knew it was coming.
Typically the general concensus is that the NEC is a minimum standard. When it comes to GFI's, for some reason, it seems like no one wants to see them implimented beyond code requirements. I frankly don't understand the dichotomy.
You might also say the circuit breaker will never be needed. (and somebody made a similar point recently)
I acctually had a halfway prepared statement for this because I knew it was coming.
Typically the general concensus is that the NEC is a minimum standard. When it comes to GFI's, for some reason, it seems like no one wants to see them implimented beyond code requirements. I frankly don't understand the dichotomy.
You might also say the circuit breaker will never be needed. (and somebody made a similar point recently)
Re: GFI for bathroom heat
Thank you to you all, I am thrilled with this web site. Just want to let you know these answers are discussed at work with us all and its wonderful that we have great minds like you all. I like to know the physics behind alot of things but I can see that grounding and bonding can be a lifetime endeavor but I need to study first and pass my test in a few months, then I can choose to delv into the whys and why nots, thanks again
Thank you to you all, I am thrilled with this web site. Just want to let you know these answers are discussed at work with us all and its wonderful that we have great minds like you all. I like to know the physics behind alot of things but I can see that grounding and bonding can be a lifetime endeavor but I need to study first and pass my test in a few months, then I can choose to delv into the whys and why nots, thanks again
Re: GFI for bathroom heat
I just recently bought a house that has a hottub in the basement; Strangely, I am experiencing a problem with the pump circuit snapping off the GFI breaker.
There are 2 circuits involved; one is for a 2 stage circulation pump, and the other for a 6KW inline heater. The breaker for the pump keeps snapping off, intermitantly every 10 to 20 hours, but if I keep turning it back on, the period gets shorter and shorter. The heater GFI breaker never pops; however, I seem to notice that if the heater breaker is off, the pump continues to run without issue. When I turn the heater breaker on, the issue returns.
I put a clamp on ammeter on the 240v circuit for the pump while is it running and it will pull 2.6 and 13.5 amps per side while running the 2 different stages; considering I just replaced the 20 amp GFI breaker, this is fine. I have no way of measuring a spike if the motor is toast.
Does anyone have any idea what I can check to figure out this problem?
Thanks for any thoughts!
I just recently bought a house that has a hottub in the basement; Strangely, I am experiencing a problem with the pump circuit snapping off the GFI breaker.
There are 2 circuits involved; one is for a 2 stage circulation pump, and the other for a 6KW inline heater. The breaker for the pump keeps snapping off, intermitantly every 10 to 20 hours, but if I keep turning it back on, the period gets shorter and shorter. The heater GFI breaker never pops; however, I seem to notice that if the heater breaker is off, the pump continues to run without issue. When I turn the heater breaker on, the issue returns.
I put a clamp on ammeter on the 240v circuit for the pump while is it running and it will pull 2.6 and 13.5 amps per side while running the 2 different stages; considering I just replaced the 20 amp GFI breaker, this is fine. I have no way of measuring a spike if the motor is toast.
Does anyone have any idea what I can check to figure out this problem?
Thanks for any thoughts!
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: GFI for bathroom heat
can we assume your talking about the pump running at low speed for 10 hours ?
can we assume your talking about the pump running at low speed for 10 hours ?
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: GFI for bathroom heat
Baddogg, please get a qualified electrician to help you on this. This is a problem of you not knowing what question to ask and could get you or someone you love hurt or killed.
Baddogg, please get a qualified electrician to help you on this. This is a problem of you not knowing what question to ask and could get you or someone you love hurt or killed.
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