GFCI / ungrounded 3-prong receptacles?

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CTho

Member
Location
Texas, USA
Occupation
Tech industry
Is there any difference at all between these two options in an old house that only has two conductor wiring? Safety, code, functionality, or otherwise?

option A:
First receptacle GFCI, all downstream receptacles are connected to load side, 3-prong with open grounds. “No equipment ground” and “GFCI protected” stickers on everything.

option B:
All receptacles GFCI, always passing line downstream (i.e. not using the load terminals). “No equipment ground” stickers on everything.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Either way you would have all of the receptacles GFCI protected. I'm not a big fan of a 3 prong receptacle with no EGC and a dumb sticker. I know that it's code compliant but IMO a 2 prong receptacle is better in order to keep things that actually require a connection to an EGC from being plugged in at all.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Considerations:
1. Safety is identical either way.
2. Each receptacle GFCI costs a lot more.
3. One receptacle protecting downstream makes it harder to find the tripped GFCI, especially if that GFCI receptacle ends up behind furniture.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Is there any difference at all between these two options in an old house that only has two conductor wiring? Safety, code, functionality, or otherwise?

option A:
First receptacle GFCI, all downstream receptacles are connected to load side, 3-prong with open grounds. “No equipment ground” and “GFCI protected” stickers on everything.

option B:
All receptacles GFCI, always passing line downstream (i.e. not using the load terminals). “No equipment ground” stickers on everything.
All wrong. You violate replacement code 406.4(D)(4)&(5), unless local exception applies.

Further, local AHJ will red tag it. Until owner pays another contractor to rewire everything. You can appeal to city council, and prove exceptions to NEC 250.114 are met, with no appliances or motor loads using 3-prong cord sets, but you won't be compensated for your time.

Option C:
Do it from the fuse box.
Get insurance agent AHJ letter of authorization for Dual-Function AFCI/GFCI safety breakers.
Shift burden on municipal AHJ to prove insurance is in violation.
 
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CTho

Member
Location
Texas, USA
Occupation
Tech industry
All wrong. You violate replacement code 406.4(D)(4)&(5), unless local exception applies.

Further, local AHJ will red tag it. Until owner pays another contractor to rewire everything. You can appeal to city council, and prove exceptions to NEC 250.114 are met, with no appliances or motor loads using 3-prong cord sets, but you won't be compensated for your time.

Option C:
Do it from the fuse box.
Get insurance agent AHJ letter of authorization for Dual-Function AFCI/GFCI safety breakers.
Shift burden on municipal AHJ to prove insurance is in violation.
Thank you. I should have clarified that all receptacles in both A and B would be TRR.

So meeting 406.4(D)(4) would require a variant of option A where the first receptacle is combo AFCI/GFCI (and everything is TRR for (5))... is that correct?

Combo AFCI/GFCI TRR’s everywhere becomes extremely cost-prohibitive so a variant of option B seems like a non-starter.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
So meeting 406.4(D)(4) would require a variant of option A where the first receptacle is combo AFCI/GFCI (and everything is TRR for (5))... is that correct?

Combo AFCI/GFCI TRR’s everywhere becomes extremely cost-prohibitive so a variant of option B seems like a non-starter.
NEC 100
Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible).
Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to take actions such as to use tools (other than keys), to climb over or under, to remove obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth. (CMP-1)

NEC 210.12
The arc-fault circuit interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location.
NEC 210.8
The ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
...
Further, local AHJ will red tag it. Until owner pays another contractor to rewire everything. You can appeal to city council, and prove exceptions to NEC 250.114 are met, with no appliances or motor loads using 3-prong cord sets, but you won't be compensated for your time. ...
For the inspector to cite an issue with 250.114, the loads would have to be present and plugged in at the time of the inspection. Just because a load that 250.114 requires a physical EGC, may be plugged in at some future time, it not enough to fail an inspection. For all practical purposes, 250.114 is totally unenforceable and should be removed from the code.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
For the inspector to cite an issue with 250.114, the loads would have to be present and plugged in at the time of the inspection. Just because a load that 250.114 requires a physical EGC, may be plugged in at some future time, it not enough to fail an inspection. For all practical purposes, 250.114 is totally unenforceable and should be removed from the code.

Thanks Don.

1) Certainly can't hurt to unplug the load before inspection, to try and remove cause for failure of 240.114.
If it still wont pass AHJ's "interpretations of the rules" per 90.4, perhaps hide the refrigerator, laundry, and wall / window HVAC appliances.

2) One would think clearing furniture away from wall plugs to prove the "Readily Accessible Location" would also help.

4) Holding to the letter of the law, many inspectors also fail this for missing "No Equipment Ground" stickers along with "GFCI Protected" stickers.
There never is enough stickers in the box, which are easily removed after installation, and found missing during inspection.

5) Other inspectors red tag after using hand-held GFCI testers that fail to trip, rather than relying on device test buttons as listed.
If inspection departments volunteer a reason for the red tag, reconsidering approval is not likely, much less the folly of hand-held testers.

6) Never met a licensed shop that offers electronically-monitored outlet grounding with GFCI's, as currently specified in NFPA-70 406.4(D)(2), nor met an inspector familiar with any 2 of 7 points here. They all prefer remodel wiring with new grounding.

7) Not aware of any 6mA Class-2 GFCI's device listed for "Life Support Equipment" This equipment is specifically excluded in the listing.
Over the counter CPAP machines are now critical to shelter-in-place Covid-19 pre treatment, before ventilators are required,

GFCI protecting old 2-wire cables as a minor replacement is a different story. There is substantial difference between new work and minor repair.

For new work renovations, licensed operators avoid taking on open permits. Client-enforced contracts are known to refuse change orders for the unforeseen complications. Expert rough-in contractors, and panel flippers minimize exposure to existing, DIY, remodel wiring, and Multi-Wire Branch Circuits (MWBC). Lacking such exposure, most understandably cant get reset-button safety devices to work on old wiring, much less 1-Pole AFCI breakers on MWBC's.

For minor repair, loose plug(s) where the service-call minimum might already cover the extra labor needed to locate the breaker or 1st outlet, clients are buying the extra safety device. Given the choice, few are refusing a $50+ A/GFCI breaker to protect switched outlets, or 2-wire cables, if avoiding the prospect of all plugs with $30+ reset buttons buried behind furniture. If not explained, people never know how simple repairs risk casualty and property.

When my health fades, or people lose interest in this market niche, or "Alway Under $500" quote enforced by my State's unlicensed minor work exception, NoFixNoPay can always stop advertising it, and join the unlimited fraternity of State-licenses, with helpers, and corporate structures.
 
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Rdcowart

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Occupation
Electrical license Holder
1. I have done a panel change and installed new afci/gfci breakers. Most of the time the panel is old as the house, and after it being 30 yrs old or older it needs to be replaced anyway. With installing the breakers it solves problem of being readily accessible. You just got to put the stickers on the outlets.

2. In NC if we replace a switch or outlet we have to make sure that there is afci protection, and if it’s not there we have to install it. I get a ton of push back from customers on this but my company will not replace the devices or modify a circuit unless they agree. Its not worth losing our license If something goes wrong.
 
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GeorgeB

ElectroHydraulics engineer (retired)
Location
Greenville SC
Occupation
Retired
... Over the counter CPAP machines are now critical to shelter-in-place Covid-19 pre treatment, before ventilators are required ...
Unless changed in the last month, CPAP machines require a doctor's prescription and pressure settings per the doctor. Directions to access the settings menus are generally available on the web, but knowledge of what settings are correct is another matter. Those owners who do change them generally use "free" software to monitor themselves (the patient) and make small changes at a time.

Me ... ??? I use one, but it is paid for mostly by Medicare and my supplemental insurance. If the required annual reports to Medicare show non-prescribed settings or insufficient use of the machine, I'm told my supplies will no longer be covered. My daily "report" is uploaded by cellular connection. Yes, they are sold on Craigslist, but AIUI, against the law.
 
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