GFCI all over the house
- Thread starter zaid
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: GFCI all over the house
Bennie: Perhaps he means installing GFCI protection for all circuits, as opposed to using GFCI components as a substitute for building materials. Just in case, I might suggest that this idea would come with an unnecessarily high price tag, but would otherwise cause no harm.
Bennie: Perhaps he means installing GFCI protection for all circuits, as opposed to using GFCI components as a substitute for building materials. Just in case, I might suggest that this idea would come with an unnecessarily high price tag, but would otherwise cause no harm.
Re: GFCI all over the house
The only problem is you would have to find a single GFCI device to protect all the circuits or you would be in violation of NFPA 72 11.6.3(5)
"Operation of a switch(other than a cicuit breaker) or a ground-fault circuit-interupter shall not cause loss of primary power."
Exception: Where a ground-fault circuit-interupter (singular) serves all electrical circuits within the dwelling unit.
Of course you could dedicate a circuit for the smoke detectors or not GFCI protect the circuits that they're on.
Not meaning to answer for Bennie, but with wooden floors the user is isolated from ground. You can still be shocked, but you can also be shocked with GFCI's in place.
Roger
[ June 20, 2003, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
The only problem is you would have to find a single GFCI device to protect all the circuits or you would be in violation of NFPA 72 11.6.3(5)
"Operation of a switch(other than a cicuit breaker) or a ground-fault circuit-interupter shall not cause loss of primary power."
Exception: Where a ground-fault circuit-interupter (singular) serves all electrical circuits within the dwelling unit.
Of course you could dedicate a circuit for the smoke detectors or not GFCI protect the circuits that they're on.
Not meaning to answer for Bennie, but with wooden floors the user is isolated from ground. You can still be shocked, but you can also be shocked with GFCI's in place.
Roger
[ June 20, 2003, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: GFCI all over the house
You will also still have to install AFCI's as required in 210.12
You will also still have to install AFCI's as required in 210.12
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
Re: GFCI all over the house
Leviton would be pleased if you protected all your outlets with GCI's, the code is a minimum. Cutler Hammer would like it even more if if you used the listed AFCI/GFCI circuit breaker.
Leviton would be pleased if you protected all your outlets with GCI's, the code is a minimum. Cutler Hammer would like it even more if if you used the listed AFCI/GFCI circuit breaker.
Re: GFCI all over the house
Ok Roger, I want to protect my kids from electric shock, I estimated the cost for a villa to be around $100 which is ok (by installing GFCI receptacle as the first device on each branch circuit-10 GFCI are required).
the problem with refrigerator is that the GFCI may trip for any reason and you are away from home (the refrigerator goes off and no body there to reset the GFCI and when come back home you need a mask to go inside)
Ok Roger, I want to protect my kids from electric shock, I estimated the cost for a villa to be around $100 which is ok (by installing GFCI receptacle as the first device on each branch circuit-10 GFCI are required).
the problem with refrigerator is that the GFCI may trip for any reason and you are away from home (the refrigerator goes off and no body there to reset the GFCI and when come back home you need a mask to go inside)
Re: GFCI all over the house
I understand you wanting to make your home safe, but GFCI's may not give the desired safety you are after. Example: young child sticks two nails in receptacle (hot and neutral) the GFCI sees no imbalance therefor doesn't trip. If the ground comes into play you have protection, but, I have had to explain to people (construction sites) that the GFCI is working even though they were shocked.
I would invest in safety devices for my money IMHO
Roger
I understand you wanting to make your home safe, but GFCI's may not give the desired safety you are after. Example: young child sticks two nails in receptacle (hot and neutral) the GFCI sees no imbalance therefor doesn't trip. If the ground comes into play you have protection, but, I have had to explain to people (construction sites) that the GFCI is working even though they were shocked.
I would invest in safety devices for my money IMHO
Roger
Re: GFCI all over the house
Roger,
While it is true that it is possible to get hit by a GFCI protected circuit. Isn't it better to protect the child that might stick one nail in the receptacle or maybe both but a fraction of a second apart then to discount its protective properties based on the unlikely chance that the child times the insertion of the two nails perfectly?
Roger,
While it is true that it is possible to get hit by a GFCI protected circuit. Isn't it better to protect the child that might stick one nail in the receptacle or maybe both but a fraction of a second apart then to discount its protective properties based on the unlikely chance that the child times the insertion of the two nails perfectly?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: GFCI all over the house
Stick a finger in the lamp socket with GFCI protection and the shock will be hot to neutral as long as the victim is not grounded the GFCI will not trip.
As long as you are not grounded there is no "timing" involved.
I think the point is keep the kids from touching the outlet in the first place with some child safety covers, they make "in use" ones too.
Batch, Using Rogers nail example as long as the victim is not grounded the GFCI will not trip.
Stick a finger in the lamp socket with GFCI protection and the shock will be hot to neutral as long as the victim is not grounded the GFCI will not trip.
As long as you are not grounded there is no "timing" involved.
I think the point is keep the kids from touching the outlet in the first place with some child safety covers, they make "in use" ones too.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: GFCI all over the house
The most practical thing to do is just simply cut your childrens fingers off so there is no chance of them inserting objects into receptacle outlets.
http://www.childsafetystore.com/
[ June 23, 2003, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: bphgravity ]
The most practical thing to do is just simply cut your childrens fingers off so there is no chance of them inserting objects into receptacle outlets.
http://www.childsafetystore.com/
[ June 23, 2003, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: bphgravity ]
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: GFCI all over the house
Let's not loose sight of the fact that a GFCI is set for the range of 4 to 6 mA and may not protect the young, old, infirm, and small people from electrocution. The threshold is high enough to prevent nuisance tripping and to protect normal sized, healthy adults.
In other words, if you are installing GFCI protection to protect children, your objective may not be achieved. It has been mentioned before but I don't think you are picking up on the fact that a shock will be delivered before the device trips, if it trips. Assume you have a device that trips at 5.5 mA and your child gets between a phase wire and a poorly grounded surface. Your child has 5 mA of current running through his body and, due to his small size, he will be electrocuted without tripping the GFCI device.
A better design would be to use childproof devices and watch your children (grandma too).
Let's not loose sight of the fact that a GFCI is set for the range of 4 to 6 mA and may not protect the young, old, infirm, and small people from electrocution. The threshold is high enough to prevent nuisance tripping and to protect normal sized, healthy adults.
In other words, if you are installing GFCI protection to protect children, your objective may not be achieved. It has been mentioned before but I don't think you are picking up on the fact that a shock will be delivered before the device trips, if it trips. Assume you have a device that trips at 5.5 mA and your child gets between a phase wire and a poorly grounded surface. Your child has 5 mA of current running through his body and, due to his small size, he will be electrocuted without tripping the GFCI device.
A better design would be to use childproof devices and watch your children (grandma too).
Re: GFCI all over the house
Batch, the GFCI (hot to neutral or neutral to hot) wouldn't see a load until both are contacted, so the time element wouldn't matter if there is no ground present.
Notice I asked was the house slab on grade,
If the house has a raised wooden floor, there would be no ground to contact except for the conductor ground pin. This would be a reason to forget the GFCI's
If the house is slab on grade the GFCI could be of some added protection depending on floor covering. But this could be debatable.
Zaid, look at Bob and Charlies mention of the shock taking place even with the GFCI present.
Now, look at Bobs, Bryans, (via link) Charlies, and my reference to "Safety / Tamper-Proof Devices"
Roger
Batch, the GFCI (hot to neutral or neutral to hot) wouldn't see a load until both are contacted, so the time element wouldn't matter if there is no ground present.
Notice I asked was the house slab on grade,
If the house has a raised wooden floor, there would be no ground to contact except for the conductor ground pin. This would be a reason to forget the GFCI's
If the house is slab on grade the GFCI could be of some added protection depending on floor covering. But this could be debatable.
Zaid, look at Bob and Charlies mention of the shock taking place even with the GFCI present.
Now, look at Bobs, Bryans, (via link) Charlies, and my reference to "Safety / Tamper-Proof Devices"
Roger
Re: GFCI all over the house
There is not a ' one shoe fits all ' on this GFCI's for whole house issue.
My thoughts are " Any precautions are better than none ", but don't believe that the GFCI or even the AFCI through-out the dwelling is 'fool-proof'.
Really, for the 10, or so, extra GFCI's for your dwelling, is cheap added protection for your family and guests.
Remember to test them frequently.
Was in an apartment of a OLD three unit building today where the new refrigerator was plugged into a 2W extension cord which was plugged into a 2W to 3W adapter and the adapter was plugged into a 4 receptacle (2W) Despards on a single strap. ( a side note, 3 of the 4 2W despards had plug and cord loads).
Naturally, the grounding tap of the adapter had no place to be attached.
When pointing-out the wiring method to one my cohort, his reply was "That is what the adapter is for - - to ground that refrigerator.
I mentioned to him to read 250.114 (3)a and to recheck the rest of the wiring method between the refrigerator an the 2W despard receptacle(s).
There is not a ' one shoe fits all ' on this GFCI's for whole house issue.
My thoughts are " Any precautions are better than none ", but don't believe that the GFCI or even the AFCI through-out the dwelling is 'fool-proof'.
Really, for the 10, or so, extra GFCI's for your dwelling, is cheap added protection for your family and guests.
Remember to test them frequently.
Was in an apartment of a OLD three unit building today where the new refrigerator was plugged into a 2W extension cord which was plugged into a 2W to 3W adapter and the adapter was plugged into a 4 receptacle (2W) Despards on a single strap. ( a side note, 3 of the 4 2W despards had plug and cord loads).
Naturally, the grounding tap of the adapter had no place to be attached.
When pointing-out the wiring method to one my cohort, his reply was "That is what the adapter is for - - to ground that refrigerator.
I mentioned to him to read 250.114 (3)a and to recheck the rest of the wiring method between the refrigerator an the 2W despard receptacle(s).
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: GFCI all over the house
Hello gwz2
What is a 2w despard receptacle?
Thanks
Pierre
Hello gwz2
What is a 2w despard receptacle?
Thanks
Pierre
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