GFCI/ AFCI breakers

[RTW]

With GFCI/AFCI Breakers installed in so many homes today why would ground conductors be needed in those circuits? It almost seems that the cost of the GFCI/AFCI Breakers could be offset by eliminating the ground conductor from those cables.

 

[tom baker]

Interesting thought. Would you consider making a proposal for the 2026 NEC? The time for public inputs is now.

 

[RTW]

Thanks Tom, but I’ll probably let one of the younger guys take the credit.

 

[hbiss]

Thanks Tom, but I’ll probably let one of the younger guys take the credit.

And the heat.

-Hal

 

[synchro]

The GFCI/AFCI function in breakers relies on electronics which can fail. Just as an example, a surge can take them out. And so the traditional function of a ground conductor would at least act as a backup in case the electronics fail.

 

[AC\DC]

But with pec piping now days in the home ground wire seems pointless.
I guess if two pieces of equipment had a fault and they happed to be one of the hot and other of the grounded conductor you got a problem.

I feel like the OP has a point though.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Interesting thought. Would you consider making a proposal for the 2026 NEC? The time for public inputs is now.

I doubt that CMP 5 would accept that public input.
I had a PI to add the following as an exception to 250.114(3) for the 2023 code. It was rejected.

• Exception: The equipment listed in 250.114(3) shall not be required to be connected to an equipment grounding conductor where supplied by a receptacle installed per 406.5(D)(2)(b) or (c).
• 
  
• Substantiation This rule discourages the increased safety that is provided where an existing 2 wire receptacle is replaced using the provisions of 406.5(D)(2)(b) or (c) as under the existing rules you still must have an EGC for the equipment listed in 250.114(3). If you are not permitted to use that equipment on the GFCI protected replacement receptacle, there is no real reason to replace the 2 wire receptacle. Even without the installation of an EGC, the use of GFCI protection increases the safety of the installation as compared to the continued use of the two wire receptacle.
• 
  
• Panel Statement The product safety standard for equipment in 250.114(3) requires that the equipment supplied with a grounding type attachment plug be connected to an equipment grounding conductor. GFCI protection is not permitted to replace the equipment grounding conductor where required.

 

[AC\DC]

Since they reference the safety standards, for the reason to not allow your proposal.
Would not a revision of the standard address that???
Seems like they did not give really good reason. Just pushed it onto another’s plate.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Since they reference the safety standards, for the reason to not allow your proposal.
Would not a revision of the standard address that???
Seems like they did not give really good reason. Just pushed it onto another’s plate.

That is more difficult to accomplish than a revision to the code. Also, if I was on the panel that changes the standard, I would not vote in favor, because the equipment will not always be supplied by a GFCI protected circuit.