Fuse federal Pacific safe?

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panhandle444

Member
Location
oklahoma
Homeowner, friend....has a 60 amp federal Pacific panel. Four 20 amp and four 15 amp branch circuits.
He wants to add a dryer plug but has no room..

Wants a 100 amp square D panel put in it's place.
The branch circuits are knob and tube....
Guy is broke with medical bills...wants to be safe by removing the federal Pacific panel..yet not pay for a whole service change

I want to provide the safest install for the limited scope of work

Question is how safe is knob and tube? Customer doesn't want/afford afci breakers.

I'm changing the 60 amp wire from the meter stack to 100 amp wire and using 100 amp main breaker square D panel he is providing.

I don't know if I feel comfortable with the install... ideally I would put remove the knob and tube, use afci breakers.

Should I not do the job? I appreciate your feedback
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
The title of your thread is "Fuse Federal Pacific. . . . " Are you saying the panel is a fuse panel, not a Federal Pacific circuit breaker panel?
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
The issues with federal Pacific where the breakers, I believe​
Yes, you are correct.

I see a lot of FP fuse centers up here in Minnesota. Doesn't the fuse center, your client has, have a set of lugs on the load side of the main bus that can be used for subpanel expansion?
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
You're really not obligated to replace the knob and tube. By putting it on more modern overcurrent protection you are only making is safer. This is done all the time around here during service upgrades.

The real condundrum is that if your new breakers or afci devices turn up a problem that the old fuses didn't reveal. That's where where you have to make a tough decision how far to go to fix it. Maybe megger it first to ensure no issues? For what it's worth I never see anyone do that.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
I'm changing the 60 amp wire from the meter stack to 100 amp wire and using 100 amp main breaker square D panel he is providing.

Depending on the location of the panel you may need an exterior disconnect. Grounding and bonding will probably be your biggest problem.

If I were you I would contact the inspection department and see if what you are planning to do is OK so as to pass inspection first time and not leave the power off for long.

In some areas here they will force you to install smoke detectors and other areas it GFCIs in required areas with a service upgrade ( no arc faults).

By talking to the inspectors you can avoid surprises.
 

panhandle444

Member
Location
oklahoma
Depending on the location of the panel you may need an exterior disconnect. Grounding and bonding will probably be your biggest problem.

If I were you I would contact the inspection department and see if what you are planning to do is OK so as to pass inspection first time and not leave the power off for long.

In some areas here they will force you to install smoke detectors and other areas it GFCIs in required areas with a service upgrade ( no arc faults).

By talking to the inspectors you can avoid surprises.

Not being inspected. It's for a friend. I want to do the safest quality installation on a limited budget. The more I touch the more I'm liable..
If this was you....what you do?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Not being inspected. It's for a friend. I want to do the safest quality installation on a limited budget. The more I touch the more I'm liable..
If this was you....what you do?
As asked before, no subfeed lugs or 60 amp branch fuseholders in this panel?

As long as they aren't putting oversized fuses in what is existing, I doubt you gain much safety by changing to a circuit breaker panel. Whether AFCI's provide additional protection that is worthwhile is still unanswered IMO.
 

user 100

Senior Member
Location
texas
Homeowner, friend....has a 60 amp federal Pacific panel. Four 20 amp and four 15 amp branch circuits.
He wants to add a dryer plug but has no room..

Wants a 100 amp square D panel put in it's place.
The branch circuits are knob and tube....
Guy is broke with medical bills...wants to be safe by removing the federal Pacific panel..yet not pay for a whole service change

I want to provide the safest install for the limited scope of work

Question is how safe is knob and tube? Customer doesn't want/afford afci breakers.

I'm changing the 60 amp wire from the meter stack to 100 amp wire and using 100 amp main breaker square D panel he is providing.

I don't know if I feel comfortable with the install... ideally I would put remove the knob and tube, use afci breakers.

Should I not do the job? I appreciate your feedback

As said above, as a general rule, the FPE fuse panels are fine. If the panel is in good condition, and nothing looks as if it has been subjected to overheating, no reason to worry as long as its properly fused for wire size. Check the K&T for all the usual suspects- hack joints and taps, look at ceiling boxes to make sure it hasn't burnt to a crisp, etc , etc. As long as K&T is in reasonably good condition and hasn't been corrupted its as safe as any other installation.

If possible just put in the new sqd main panel, run the dryer from spaces on that, and turn the old fuse box into a sub.
 
If possible just put in the new sqd main panel, run the dryer from spaces on that, and turn the old fuse box into a sub.

That was my thought, also. And if it's ungrounded K&T, you don't have to worry about separating the neutrals and grounds when you make it a sub :D.

Basically, design it right and you might not to have to touch the old fuse panel at all.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Doesn't the fuse center, your client has, have a set of lugs on the load side of the main bus that can be used for subpanel expansion?

Not being inspected. It's for a friend. I want to do the safest quality installation on a limited budget. The more I touch the more I'm liable..
If this was you....what you do?


Limited budget & no inspections. I would probably do as al suggest and used a little 30 amp sub panel.

I wasn't suggesting that you spend a lot of money only trying to warm of what can happen when you change out the service to a larger size.

You will know the area you are working in better than people on a forum. For a friend I may do things I wouldn't normally do.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Not being inspected. It's for a friend. I want to do the safest quality installation on a limited budget. The more I touch the more I'm liable..
If this was you....what you do?
Great question.

I'd start with the Article 220 load calculation. What are the major loads and what are the nameplate kW ratings of them? Central Air? Well? Electric Range? Electric clothes dry? Etc. What is the "habitable" square footage, measured on the outside of the dwelling (times 3 Watts per square foot)? This first step is to determine if the 14.4 kW "let-through" of the service entrance really is overloaded, or not. This defines the "safe size" by the NEC for the service entrance.

Add in any required future loads that will be installed, not the dream loads, just the dispassionately picked required new loads.

Next, I'd turn my attention to the existing K&T branch circuits and identify the large-ish loads on them. Window ACs? Space heaters? Kitchen appliances? Laundry? Blow dryers? the Kitchen refrigerator? Supply new branch circuits to the largest existing loads on the K&T branch circuits, thereby shedding load off the K&T.

Evaluate any exposed K&T for environmental degradation and repair as / if necessary. Make a simple receptacle, switch and light evaluation on the existing K&T and repair only as needed.

Then, if that is still not enough, address specific desired additions, or corrections, that your friend wants. As part of this conversation, give this person the itemized list of the installed things, you know, the dishwasher circuit, bathroom receptacle circuit, etc., before doing wants or desires. Impress upon him the fundamental safety increase these items have accomplished. It is reasonable to balanced in your charity.
 

user 100

Senior Member
Location
texas
That was my thought, also. And if it's ungrounded K&T, you don't have to worry about separating the neutrals and grounds when you make it a sub :D.

Basically, design it right and you might not to have to touch the old fuse panel at all.

Yeah, the buddy already has that new 100a panel, it keeps him away from the old stuff, takes afci out of the equation ( though technically obc afci would be needed per the art in 406, if old recs require replacements but the circumstances of the situation seem to dictate otherwise), and he gets his dryer.

Plus it gives him the benefit of being able to add stuff in the future as needed by utilizing the extra spaces in new panel, something he cant do now b/c old fuse box is full

Great question.

I'd start with the Article 220 load calculation. What are the major loads and what are the nameplate kW ratings of them? Central Air? Well? Electric Range? Electric clothes dry? Etc. What is the "habitable" square footage, measured on the outside of the dwelling (times 3 Watts per square foot)? This first step is to determine if the 14.4 kW "let-through" of the service entrance really is overloaded, or not. This defines the "safe size" by the NEC for the service entrance.

Add in any required future loads that will be installed, not the dream loads, just the dispassionately picked required new loads.

Next, I'd turn my attention to the existing K&T branch circuits and identify the large-ish loads on them. Window ACs? Space heaters? Kitchen appliances? Laundry? Blow dryers? the Kitchen refrigerator? Supply new branch circuits to the largest existing loads on the K&T branch circuits, thereby shedding load off the K&T. .

This was another worry of mine with this deal- I'd rather see a 200 or at least a 125 (bigger panel and service) put in ahead of that FP to handle any present/ anticipated loads to be added to new main but again the circumstances.....
 
Last edited:

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Yeah, the buddy already has that new 100a panel, it keeps him away from the old stuff, takes afci out of the equation ( though technically obc afci would be needed per the art in 406, if old recs require replacements but the circumstances of the situation seem to dictate otherwise), and he gets his dryer.

Plus it gives him the benefit of being able to add stuff in the future as needed by utilizing the extra spaces in new panel, something he cant do now b/c old fuse box is full



This was another worry of mine with this deal- I'd rather see a 200 or at least a 125 (bigger panel and service) put in ahead of that FP to handle any present/ anticipated loads to be added to new main but again the circumstances.....
He already has the panel, but what else will it take to legally install it? Has been mentioned some places make you put in smoke alarms or GFCI's or update some other things to current codes if you change the service.




I've noticed how everyone in similar situation is always my buddy and wants a break on installation costs:huh:
 

norcal

Senior Member
The issue with FPE is with Stab-Lok panels & circuit breakers not other FPE product lines. Yesterday came across a semi-flush Cutler-Hammer XO panel from the 1950's with a FPE Stab-Lok main breaker that does not look like a site retrofit.
 

panhandle444

Member
Location
oklahoma
As asked before, no subfeed lugs or 60 amp branch fuseholders in this panel?

As long as they aren't putting oversized fuses in what is existing, I doubt you gain much safety by changing to a circuit breaker panel. Whether AFCI's provide additional protection that is worthwhile is still unanswered IMO.

60 amp main. Four 15 amp and four 20 amp existing. Customer wants to add dryer plug. I probably could use the main lug and mount small subpanel for the dryer.

But would my install create a hazard to the existing installation. I would not be touching any of the meter bank or knob and tube.

I'm going to try and convince homeowner to do whole new service but
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
60 amp main. Four 15 amp and four 20 amp existing. Customer wants to add dryer plug. I probably could use the main lug and mount small subpanel for the dryer.

But would my install create a hazard to the existing installation. I would not be touching any of the meter bank or knob and tube.

I'm going to try and convince homeowner to do whole new service but

You can't put two conductors in the main lug, but you can use approved connection devices ahead of the main lugs.

If the supply to this panel is service entrance conductors, you can supply up to six service disconnecting means, and their ratings can add up to more then the ampacity of the service entrance conductors, but at same time the calculated load of all of them can not be more then the ampacity of the service entrance conductors.

Now we complicate things more with 230.79(C) and the fact that services to dwellings need to have a 100 amp rated service disconnecting means minimum, so if you touch the service side of this at all your best bet is likely the new 100 amp panel if you are going to comply with NEC.
 
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