Fishing in grounds in a 2 wire house

[jes25]

I've got a job coming up where I will be adding grounds to all the recptacles in an old house. I have read the code and this is what I came up with for a design: Run a #6awg bare cu around the basement. Fish in # 12 Thhn to each receptacle. In the basement I'll sleeve the #12 in counduit (open #12 within the walls). The connection would be an open splitbolt onto the #6 awg. I also figure I'll place a small tag at the connection point warning that it is critical connection and not to be touched by unqualified persons.

Whats the industry standard for this type of adding? Does anyone have any comments to make job faster, easier or better?

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Fishing in grounds in a 2 wire house

My only comment does not directly address what you are doing. I would say if you are going through the trouble of fishying grounds to all these receptacles why not just fish new wire?

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Fishing in grounds in a 2 wire house

I have a question.Just why are they doing this ?Rather costly for the ones that won't ever see a 3rd prong.Do they think this fixes anything ? The wire is still very old and unlikey to be in good condition

 

[sparky59]

Re: Fishing in grounds in a 2 wire house

i usually recommend one new grounded plug in each bedroom and then in other rooms as needed. the kitchen needs all grounded.

 

[jes25]

Re: Fishing in grounds in a 2 wire house

Well here in Michigan we follow the MRC (the IRC with amendements) and the code for existing dwellings does not allow for replacement of recptacles unless it is grounded, so you can not so much as change a plug without adding a ground.

Scott, As far as just running all new wire I am not comfortable just cutting off the old feed and shoving it down the wall and trying to trace everything out to see what needs to be disconnected and what needs to get rehooked up. I just dont like unused wire in the walls. Plus it seems like you would run into box fill problems. Please tell me your technique for rewiring a house.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Fishing in grounds in a 2 wire house

"Well here in Michigan we follow the MRC (the IRC with amendements) and the code for existing dwellings does not allow for replacement of recptacles unless it is grounded, so you can not so much as change a plug without adding a ground."

Your code needs changed before you kill someone.What your saying is rather than allow a replacement 2 prong receptacle you would rather see a fire started from this worn out or cracked outlet.slumlords will not spend the money and neither will the poor homeowner.I see a fire just waiting to happen.What is there logic behind this ? Outcome will be handymen changing them out.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Fishing in grounds in a 2 wire house

Joe, if you absolutely have to retain the start of the circuit, and run a seperate EGC back to the service neutral connection, then you must, that's a given. What's got us all scratching our heads is why fish solely an EGC to each location, instead of doing that once at the first outlet in your project, and then running new romex between receptacles after that.

You're fishing anyway, why go to so much trouble with the split-bolting and all that jazz?

 

[stud696981]

Re: Fishing in grounds in a 2 wire house

"Well here in Michigan we follow the MRC (the IRC with amendements) and the code for existing dwellings does not allow for replacement of recptacles unless it is grounded, so you can not so much as change a plug without adding a ground."

-----------------------------------------------
I haven't seen this one yet. I just did two jobs in two cities in Michigan, just South of Detroit. In both cases we placed GFI receptacles on the first outlet and the appropriate stickers on the rest of the three prong outlets. Both jobs past with flying colors, no issues with the inspectors. These were both whole house receptacle replacements.

 

[stud696981]

Re: Fishing in grounds in a 2 wire house

One more comment to JES25. While your idea is code compliant, why not fish a whole new ciruit? The labor involved is the same, just a little extra material and a better job for the customer.

 

[jes25]

Re: Fishing in grounds in a 2 wire house

OK stud, Grab your MRC and flip to section AJ301. REPAIRS and you find it states:

Existing electrical wiring and equipment undergoing repair shall be permitted to be repaired or replaced with like material.


But what about mandatory exception (1):

Replacement of electrical receptacle shall comply with the requirements of chapters 33-42.

Now with that said I would like to see a permited method with the GFI or whatever in chapters 33-42. You will not find it. I wish I was wrong I hope someone can prove me wrong ( I think this is stupid).

Just cause the inspector passed it does not mean anything. I dont think most inspectors or electricians understand this.

People from other states that use the IRC please let me know what your book says as i am curious if this is a MI amendement or a IRC rule?

 

[LarryFine]

Re: Fishing in grounds in a 2 wire house

Originally posted by stud696981:
In both cases we placed GFI receptacles on the first outlet and the appropriate stickers on the rest of the three prong outlets.

It's also important that the EGC terminals on grounding receptacles are NOT interconnected when using this method.

 

[shortcircuit2]

Re: Fishing in grounds in a 2 wire house

Over here in Massachusetts, we aren't allowed to run the grounding conductor separate from the circuit conductors...

shortcircuit2

 

[jes25]

Re: Fishing in grounds in a 2 wire house

250.134 (B) Exception 1 says you can run the EGC seperate from the circuit conductors

 

[shortcircuit2]

Re: Fishing in grounds in a 2 wire house

250.130(C) is deleted from the Massachusetts Electric Code...

So,except for DC circuits, we would not be allowed to run the EGC separate from the circuit conductors as you are...

shortcircuit2

 

[Jesse M. White]

Re: Fishing in grounds in a 2 wire house

if you run a 12 awg ecg to each box that implies that you will open each box ; disturbing the brittle old wire ; creating more of a hazard than before.....almost.
you are better off fishing new romex.
you will feel better when you're done.
good luck!