Energy savings with a TVSS?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Anyone have any experience with Redi-Volt surge suppressors? Around here they are sold by a company named enerTECH. I do a lot of consulting work for municipalities, and one of my clients was recently approached by enerTECH. They proposed installing their equipment at several of my client's water treatment plants, claiming that in addition to providing surge protection, their TVSS equipment will actually reduce the power bills by 20%. :roll:

I don't buy it, and intend on advising my client to pass on the offer. I know it's been discussed before here on the Mike Holt website, at http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/EES-HTML/HTML/TvssClaimsEnergySavings-Update~20030421.htm, but that discussion is a couple years old so I was wondering if anyone has more recent experience with these guys.
 

wirenut1980

Senior Member
Location
Plainfield, IN
Re: Energy savings with a TVSS?

All I know is that if their equipment really did what they are telling people, they would not have to approach anyone. People would be knocking down their door. ;)
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
Re: Energy savings with a TVSS?

Stuart-It a scam. A TVSS can not save energy. Ask them how it can save energy...A TVSS simply shuts the transient from one hot line to the other, or to the neutral.
One of our Moderators, Dereck, developed a TVSS for GE and is quite knowledgeable about them. If he doesn't reply send him a PM on this.
 
Re: Energy savings with a TVSS?

Originally posted by tom baker:
Stuart-It a scam. A TVSS can not save energy. Ask them how it can save energy...A TVSS simply shuts the transient from one hot line to the other, or to the neutral.
I agree. I'm just wondering how widespread this sort of thing is.

The interesting part of their sales pitch is they guarantee at least 20% savings in energy costs, but if you look at the fine print there are so many loopholes in the guarantee it would be nearly impossible to make a successful claim against them.

They must be pretty good salesmen, though...my client seemed pretty convinced it was a good deal, even after I explained that a TVSS is not going to save them anything on their power bill (and, they already have surge supression equipment built into the motor control centers in all their water treatment plants anyway.)
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Energy savings with a TVSS?

There was another one of these going around the Twin Cities about two years back.

The outfit (their name escapes me at the moment) was offering the same kind of power bill reduction after they used a proprietory connection cleaning process on a customer's electrical system.

The customer had to be invested enough to interrupt the electrical service over one night and to sign a year long fee contract as they split "the savings" with the connection cleaners.

Again, in this case, as you, Stuart, state, the language of the agreement made it almost impossible to assess the actual savings. And yet, the agreement guaranteed the fee payment.

And if ya don't like that'un, I got a bottle over here that'll cure what ails ya. . .guaranteed.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Seattle, WA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Re: Energy savings with a TVSS?

Let me expand on Al's comments. I remember a similar discussion on this Forum more than a year ago. The original poster gave us a link to the web site of the company that was offering this "energy savings" equipment. It too was a scam. But it was very cleverly worded.

They said that they would need a witness from the company management to observe the "before" and "after" meter readings. The took a power reading at the main service, then turned it off (killing the entire building for an hour or two), did their installation of their "product," turned the service back on, and took another power reading. As it was witnessed by the owner's representative, there would be clearly no room for trickery, right? The fee was to be based on a percentage of two years worth of energy savings, based on the "before" reading minus the "after" reading.

What's the scam? When you turn the service back on, you don't get all of the machines turned on immediately. So the "after" reading does not reflect the actual power requirements of the building, and the "after" reading is obviously going to be lower than the "before." Later, as the company gets their monthly power bills from the utility, they discover that they are not saving energy at the rate predicted by the "before" and "after" comparison. But then it was too late. They have already signed a contract to pay an "energy savings fee" for two years.
 

flinnagin

Member
Re: Energy savings with a TVSS?

I am curious as I have also been approached by a company making these claims of energy savings. Has anyone heard of the Stems energy management units? I would like to hear your take on their claims.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Seattle, WA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Re: Energy savings with a TVSS?

I saw no lies or even half-lies on their web site. I also saw no magic. What I did see was a bit of sloppiness, in their use of electrical terms.

They are offering a filter system, to alleviate the problems with harmonics. They tell you it will prolong equipment life, and that is true. They are also offering power factor correction. They tell you it will reduce the amp draw, improve the power factor and reduce KVAR. That is also true. But there are many products by many manufacturers that can do that job, and all will give you the same result.

What throws me is their claim that you will see 5% savings in KHW. That is not true. They say you must measure amps on each leg of each load, at the breaker panel. If you do that both before and after you install their equipment, and if you make sure that all other conditions are identical, then you will, indeed, see a reduction in amps. But you will not see a change in watts. The watts are based on the work done by the loads, not on the additional exchange of energy between the magnetic fields of the generator and the motor (i.e., the "power factor").

I'll not endorse this, or any other product on this Forum. I will say that you should not allow yourself to be led into the belief that this company is offering something that no other company can offer. It's just "power factor correction." That technology has been around for many long years.
 

flinnagin

Member
Re: Energy savings with a TVSS?

We are having huge problems at our plants with Transients. For the most part the THD plant wide is fairly good (<4%) We do have a couple of MCC's however that are above 7%. Should I be looking at TVSS's as well as filters. We have had alot of electronics fail as well as HID lighting ballasts fail. Should I be installing filters on my UPS' and VFD's and TVSS' on my MCC sections?
 
Re: Energy savings with a TVSS?

Wirenut said that if Redi-Volt’s claim was true the world would knock down their door. They have a mediocre TVSS that’s why theirs doesn’t do the job.

Read Dr. Walton N. Hershfield’s report on “Electrical Transient Impact on Energy Costs and Safety.” He figured out the problem and even designed a TVSS that he has been marketing in Asia because of the prejudice brought about by junk TVSS’ that cannot rid the grid of transients, quell harmonic disturbances and correct the power factor. His model design does it and he took it to Asia. Dr. Hershfield makes a few million a year selling it to the Asian market the answer to all their “power problems” that once couldn’t be cleaned out of the grid. Asians kicked our butts in the automotive marketplace and they will end up stomping us into the ground in this area too. Isn’t bad enough that China’s number one marketer is based in Arkansas and employs half of the non-governmental workers in America.

There is a TVSS System similar to Dr. Hershfield’s that is actually a little bit more efficient than his, patented a year ago, in the field proving itself since 1995 and 9,999 out of 10,000 electrical and electronic engineers refuse to believe it based on the history of TVSS’ that are on the market that can’t do the job correctly.

Correct the power factor, eliminate harmonic disturbances and stop all transients of 5 volts and above up to 105,900 volts @5000amps and you tell me what will happen to an electrical grid that is FULLY protected by such a system. Throw in a 10 full year replacement warranty; no questions asked. With that you would think that the world would knock down your door.

Well I can tell that they don’t, the engineers refuse to believe it, regardless of third party evidence.

Sorry wirenut, you made a completely logical statement and I am in full agreement. But the world won’t even hold the door open for it let alone knock it down.
There is only one 21st Century TVSS and I think it will be the 22nd Century before the electrical and electronic engineers will be able to comprehend it. The Wright Brothers met with the same fearful prejudice. The truth is out there. I understand it and I’m not even an electrician, but I’m not a mountain climber either and I know for certain that Mt. Everest is a monster to climb.

The game is afoot gentlemen and ladies, see if you can find the elusive TVSS of the future, it’s out there, whether you believe it or not.

Here’s your only clue.
See my name through the eyes of a dyslexic movie fan and the ****** energy systems answer will be there.
 
Re: Energy savings with a TVSS?

Originally posted by wirenut1980:
All I know is that if their equipment really did what they are telling people, they would not have to approach anyone. People would be knocking down their door. ;)
Theirs doesn't but there is one out there and available. In flawless operation for nearly ten years. Patent approved 09/04. No one is knocking down the door, most won't even listen to the FACT that it exists.
 

milwaukeesteve

Senior Member
Location
Milwaukee, WI
Re: Energy savings with a TVSS?

Here is a layman's way of describing how they work.
If a building gets 480V, all the mechanicals and light loads will run like they were designed. If there is a small surge in voltage, say 490V, the building would still run. However the power consumed, since load stayed the same and voltage increased, will increase. Now say that this happens frequently or for long durations, then the consumed "extra" power could add up to a lot.
Again, if the building sees 480, 490, or 500, it really isn't going to care, except it will eat up that power.
If we were to install a cutoff, that only allowed overvoltages of 5V, then the building wouldn't see that 490V, and wouldn't consume the power that it once might have.
That is how the claims of 5% energy savings are based.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
Re: Energy savings with a TVSS?

flinnagin
For your VFD's use line reactors on the input side, 3 or 5%. They are like a big sponge for transients
Regarding TVSS-
Its a good place to start
More is better
You get what you pay for

I have installed TVSS's on every electrical service i maintain. All equipment is microprocessor based, recorders, analyizers, PLCs, , and more. Before I started installing TVSS we were loosing one or two device a year, most often the power supply.
I use a TVSS that costs $300 for a small 120/240 60 ampere service, 480 volt gets two, one 480, one 120/240.200 amps and above get a $1500 model.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top