EMT Conduits passing Class 1, Division 1 Location.

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PP26

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Location
NYC
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Electrical Engineer
My EMT conduits are passing through a Class 1, Division 1 location. This type of conduit is not on the list of permitted conduits to be installed inside this room.

Now my question is, if I cover my conduits with a 2-hour fire rated sheetrock, would this be permitted ?

Since as per Article 230, a conductor is considered outside the building if it is encased with 2 inches of concrete which is also equivalent to 2-hour fire rated.

But Article 230 only pertains to service conductors, my feeders are not service conductors, so I am not sure if this also apply.

I would appreciate all the response.
 

sameguy

Senior Member
Location
New York
Occupation
Master Elec./JW retired
Can you run pipe behind 2hr. Rated Sheetrock?
If you have a Sheetrock "duct" tape and bedded, is the pipe in the C1D1, like the other side of the C1D1 walls that are there now?
I had a knee wall made one time in an elevator control room when my guys missed the wall by 6"; passed inspection.
 

PP26

Member
Location
NYC
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
We will basically cover the EMT pipes with 2-hour fire rated sheetrock so it would be separated from the Oxygen tank storage rooms.

Would this be permitted ? or work as an alternative at least to be code compliant ?
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I think the answer will be found in who is willing to sign his name to the documents that describe the classification in the area. Who signed the original documents that described the classification?
 

PP26

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Location
NYC
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Before we go any farther, why is the room classified as Division 1 in the first place?

It is a storage for oxygen tanks, and I did some research that oxygen tanks can also be combustible due to the contamination in and around of the regulators.
 

PP26

Member
Location
NYC
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
I think the answer will be found in who is willing to sign his name to the documents that describe the classification in the area. Who signed the original documents that described the classification?

The facility is a health care facility. And the storage for the oxygen tanks is part of the facility. Would this portion can be classified as Class 1 Division 1 ?
 

rbalex

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Staff member
Location
Mission Viejo, CA
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It is a storage for oxygen tanks, and I did some research that oxygen tanks can also be combustible due to the contamination in and around of the regulators.
The facility is a health care facility. And the storage for the oxygen tanks is part of the facility. Would this portion can be classified as Class 1 Division 1 ?
You need to do more research - Check NFPA 497 as recommended by Section 500.4(B) IN No. 2.
 

PP26

Member
Location
NYC
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
As a point of interest, I'd like to know the source of your previous research.

Thank you for the respons.

So we need to ask for the proper documentation of this oxygen storage room if it was classified as Class 1 Division 1.

Here is the link where I found out that even oxygen tanks can be combustible.

 

PP26

Member
Location
NYC
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
I think the answer will be found in who is willing to sign his name to the documents that describe the classification in the area. Who signed the original documents that described the classification?
Thank you for the response.
 

paulengr

Senior Member
Thank you for the respons.

So we need to ask for the proper documentation of this oxygen storage room if it was classified as Class 1 Division 1.

Here is the link where I found out that even oxygen tanks can be combustible.


Not the same as a standard or a peer reviewed study or something like that. That article is written as recommendations on proper handling but it isn’t a consensus safety standard so should only be used absent any other guidance.

I’m not buying your conclusion. To create a fire you need a fuel AND oxygen plus a minimum ignition temperature and be within the lower and upper flammability limits. Oxygen by itself is NOT combustible. You can’t burn it...it’s not a fuel source by itself. We assume oxygen is normally present by way of the atmosphere and classify areas based on the fuels present, NOT oxygen by itself. You have the cart before the horse.

Oxygen it does promote combustion and alters the temperatures and flammability limits. That’s why it gets special treatment. By way of example many plastics such as nitrile hit their autoignition temperatures in an oxygen rich atmosphere at room temperature. For this reason putting on my process engineer hat oxygen by itself is NOT flammable. But pay attention closely to the materials present because things generally not considered flammable suddenly can be. I have a good friend that burned his hands severely while wearing nitrile gloves because an oxygen line was leaking and nobody knew it, at room temperature. Lots of crazy things happen even at mild elevated oxygen levels.

But this also indicates you can’t be C1/D1. In a division 1 condition the fire hazard is normally present. This is the case for instance in a coal mine or near coal processing equipment or say in a natural gas storage facility or in many parts of a refinery where the processing equipment is open to the atmosphere. In a division 2 environment it is not normally present but can on occasion be present. Generally this is the area where there needs to be a double failure. For instance you have an oxygen leak AND a faulty light switch. This is not an all
Inconclusive rule. Conditions that are rare such as maintenance activities, equipment that rarely leaks, etc., don’t count and make it unclassified. 497 talks more about these concepts.

But it would be a serious mistake to start with NFPA 497. Start with the most specific Code. In this case it’s NFPA 98 which covers gas bottle storage in healthcare facilities, THEN the more generic 55 which is the generic cryogenic gas Code, and only then refer to 497 if the first two don’t cover it. This is as per 497. Most NFPA Codes give very specific design requirements on piping, procedures, etc. Then those procedures tell you what the classification is under those standards. NFPA 497 only applies if all other Codes fail to provide guidance.

So..,research the most specific Codes first, then fall back to NFPA 497 ONLY if the more specific Codes don’t give guidance.

MANY PEs don’t get this and come up with some really badly screwed up recommendations based on their own guessing and attempts to do things. 497 actually says to do it this way but they skip over the first chapter. That would be like skipping over article 90 or 110 in NEC. If this all seems like something doesn’t smell right to you, that’s because it does smell bad.

NEC has several ways to qualify as outside the area. Don’t try to get creative.
 

rbalex

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Mission Viejo, CA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
Back in 1975 while we were preparing to celebrate our country's Bicentennial, a "Bicentennial home" burned to the ground. The Fire Marshal stated, "The cause of the fire could not be determined, because the house had not been wired."
The details of exactly what happened in the Norwalk case have not been released, but a review of what has caused other regulator fires might help prevent more in the future.
In my experience, when, "The details of exactly what happened in the Norwalk case have not been released..." is because no one knows and speculation runs rampant.

The article has some good recommendations - but classifying the location wasn't one of them.

As petersonra mentioned the classification of the location must be properly documented in the first place. [Section 500.4(A)] After that I'll let paulengr's unnecessarily long-winded explanation tell you why you don't need to classify the location.
 

PP26

Member
Location
NYC
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Not the same as a standard or a peer reviewed study or something like that. That article is written as recommendations on proper handling but it isn’t a consensus safety standard so should only be used absent any other guidance.

I’m not buying your conclusion. To create a fire you need a fuel AND oxygen plus a minimum ignition temperature and be within the lower and upper flammability limits. Oxygen by itself is NOT combustible. You can’t burn it...it’s not a fuel source by itself. We assume oxygen is normally present by way of the atmosphere and classify areas based on the fuels present, NOT oxygen by itself. You have the cart before the horse.

Oxygen it does promote combustion and alters the temperatures and flammability limits. That’s why it gets special treatment. By way of example many plastics such as nitrile hit their autoignition temperatures in an oxygen rich atmosphere at room temperature. For this reason putting on my process engineer hat oxygen by itself is NOT flammable. But pay attention closely to the materials present because things generally not considered flammable suddenly can be. I have a good friend that burned his hands severely while wearing nitrile gloves because an oxygen line was leaking and nobody knew it, at room temperature. Lots of crazy things happen even at mild elevated oxygen levels.

But this also indicates you can’t be C1/D1. In a division 1 condition the fire hazard is normally present. This is the case for instance in a coal mine or near coal processing equipment or say in a natural gas storage facility or in many parts of a refinery where the processing equipment is open to the atmosphere. In a division 2 environment it is not normally present but can on occasion be present. Generally this is the area where there needs to be a double failure. For instance you have an oxygen leak AND a faulty light switch. This is not an all
Inconclusive rule. Conditions that are rare such as maintenance activities, equipment that rarely leaks, etc., don’t count and make it unclassified. 497 talks more about these concepts.

But it would be a serious mistake to start with NFPA 497. Start with the most specific Code. In this case it’s NFPA 98 which covers gas bottle storage in healthcare facilities, THEN the more generic 55 which is the generic cryogenic gas Code, and only then refer to 497 if the first two don’t cover it. This is as per 497. Most NFPA Codes give very specific design requirements on piping, procedures, etc. Then those procedures tell you what the classification is under those standards. NFPA 497 only applies if all other Codes fail to provide guidance.

So..,research the most specific Codes first, then fall back to NFPA 497 ONLY if the more specific Codes don’t give guidance.

MANY PEs don’t get this and come up with some really badly screwed up recommendations based on their own guessing and attempts to do things. 497 actually says to do it this way but they skip over the first chapter. That would be like skipping over article 90 or 110 in NEC. If this all seems like something doesn’t smell right to you, that’s because it does smell bad.

NEC has several ways to qualify as outside the area. Don’t try to get creative.
Thank you for the response. I appreciate it.
 
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