Economics of "no live work" in residential service work

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jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Keep in mind that OSHA requirements don't apply to business owners, so sole proprietar electricians face no legal requirements to turn off a main breaker, let alone have a meter pulled. That's gonna make it pretty hard to compete if you insist on doing so. Combine that with the fact that it's pretty easy to avoid serious injury at 240V...
 

paulengr

Senior Member
Once again you all missed what 70E and OSHA require.

First off generation, transmission, and distribution fall under OSHA 1910.269. They are not included in the scope of 70E. There are a couple major differences. First the “no energized work” requirement is dropped. Second tags only (no locks) is allowed in some cases.

Second more specifically “no live work” is NOT what 70E or OSHA says. LOTO is inherently live work. Before testing for absence of voltage the circuit is presumed live. Until this final step of LOTO is completed it is assumed live. Every step of LOTO is live work. So you fundamentally cannot perform “no live work” except new construction with no final connection.

Third troubleshooting is diagnostic work. There are many tests (continuity, resistance) that can be done without energized conductors but all voltage and current tests simply can’t be done without energized work. 70E and OSHA specifically recognize and exempt permits for this reason.

When it comes to circuit changes doing them all while de-energized except for the utility connection is very reasonable and definitely what 70E is all about. And again see my first point...making a utility connection is distribution work which falls under an entirely different set of rules (1910.269), not Subchapter S and not 70E.

This is like the typical industrial safety managers that think that Subchapter J is the one and only LOTO regulation, completely ignoring when it says that it does not apply to electrical.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
Once again you all missed what 70E and OSHA require.

First off generation, transmission, and distribution fall under OSHA 1910.269. They are not included in the scope of 70E. There are a couple major differences. First the “no energized work” requirement is dropped. Second tags only (no locks) is allowed in some cases.

Second more specifically “no live work” is NOT what 70E or OSHA says. LOTO is inherently live work. Before testing for absence of voltage the circuit is presumed live. Until this final step of LOTO is completed it is assumed live. Every step of LOTO is live work. So you fundamentally cannot perform “no live work” except new construction with no final connection.

Third troubleshooting is diagnostic work. There are many tests (continuity, resistance) that can be done without energized conductors but all voltage and current tests simply can’t be done without energized work. 70E and OSHA specifically recognize and exempt permits for this reason.

When it comes to circuit changes doing them all while de-energized except for the utility connection is very reasonable and definitely what 70E is all about. And again see my first point...making a utility connection is distribution work which falls under an entirely different set of rules (1910.269), not Subchapter S and not 70E.

This is like the typical industrial safety managers that think that Subchapter J is the one and only LOTO regulation, completely ignoring when it says that it does not apply to electrical.
I barely know anything about 70E but I got bet my next paycheck that if I've got my hands in an energized service panel and it has exposed live parts then I am doing live work.
 

blueheels2

Senior Member
Location
Raleigh, NC
Occupation
Electrical contractor
As a single man service company this is giving me a headache. I spent years working for the big boys doing no hot work etc., but haven’t really thought of the implications for what i do. Going to have to start thinking about it so I appreciate the thread. I just change breakers in residential without batting an eye especially if it’s a clean install.
 

hornetd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician, Retired
Most are going to do this type of work without even turning the main off.

I pushed for a few code cycles for a "separate compartment" rule for the service disconnect and service entrance conductors, like they require in Canada. That was not accepted for the NEC, but it triggered action by UL that resulted in the line side barriers that are now installed in service equipment. That does not give any where near the protection of a separate compartment, they do provide a substantial reduction in the risk when working in the enclosure that contains the service disconnect.
Good on ya Don! I have often wondered why we cannot have separate compartment panels in the United States. Canada has not suffered complete collapse of it's home building industry because they require it so I'm not willing to accept that we've never done it so it can never work here. Hell I might even be willing to go a step farther and require that the cover be fitted in such a way that you cannot remove it from the cabinet unless the breaker handle is in the off position. All that requires is extended guides at each corner to keep the panel cover from being manipulated free with the breaker still on and a breaker with a handle which is larger at it's tip than it is where it comes through it's slot in the outer cover.

The real remedy is at hand however. All future service installs on dwellings will have to have an exterior disconnect once the 2020 edition of the NEC is adopted in your locality. What I foresee is a lot of 3R main breaker enclosures being installed out at the meter with an Main Lug Only panelboard inside. That will be the least cost means of compliance with this mandate for exterior disconnect on all dwellings. A lot more 4 wire SER cable, add on grounding conductor busbars, and similar parts will be sold because the cable or raceway from the main breaker enclosure will now contain a feeder instead of Service Entry Conductors. But somehow I cannot see this as the TEOTWAWKI.

They tell me that it is for Firefighter safety so I should be all for it but if you want to reduce the risks to firefighters as much as is practical you Auto Fire Sprinkler the building. If we were to somehow get an exterior main breaker retrofitted on every house we would not save anywhere near the lives that we would save by giving subsidies for home fire sprinkler installations in existing homes. The firefighters will not have to be in terrible danger when they do the utility control because in almost every case the fire will be extinguished before the firefighters begin to respond to the sprinkler water flow alarm. They would arrive to a building with a cool and non deadly atmosphere and be able to simply walk in and open the Service Disconnecting Means. But just like Canada's separate compartment service connections it is too much like sense.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
Most are going to do this type of work without even turning the main off.

I pushed for a few code cycles for a "separate compartment" rule for the service disconnect and service entrance conductors, like they require in Canada. That was not accepted for the NEC, but it triggered action by UL that resulted in the line side barriers that are now installed in service equipment. That does not give any where near the protection of a separate compartment, they do provide a substantial reduction in the risk when working in the enclosure that contains the service disconnect.
gotta say, it was a bit disappointing to open my first 'line barrier' panel after having expectations.......~RJ~
 

jakethesnake

New User
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
Apprentice Electrician
Is any one aware of a residential service focused electrical contracting company that has successfully an implemented a strict “no live work” policy? I’m curious to hear about how such a policy has impacted the business’ ability to win jobs when the perceived “hassle” is high, relative to industry norms.

A simple example: A customer needs a malfunctioning single-pole breaker replaced in their panel. The main breaker of this panel is also the service disconnect, so the only way to completely de-energize the panel would be for the power company to temporarily disconnect the home’s electric service. (The same constraints would apply to any work that requires removing the panel cover.)

For the “no live work” contractor, the lead-time for such a job might be days or weeks depending on the power company. Additionally, the customer would lose power for some portion of the day.

Meanwhile - there are likely many competitors that are willing to do the job “live”, and can offer same-day service, with no power-outage, for a presumably lower price (they don’t need to account for the additional coordination with the power company).

Bottom line - setting aside the merits of such a policy - are there any real world examples of a company proving it is economically viable to run a residential service business that prohibits live work?

Thanks!
All residential services should have cold sequence metering for this reason! No reason a residential service electrician should not be able to LOTO to perform his or her work safely. I hear you if you say the initial installation cost will be higher. But you can't put a price tag on someones life.
 

EricSlater

New User
Location
USA
Occupation
Psychology
This will never happen because it is simply not profitable for electric companies. and human life, as well as security, has no price for them, unfortunately.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If we could go back in time, I think the ideal solution would be a disconnect built into the meter bases as standard, on the line side. Would be good for everyone, poco meter people, electricians and firefighters.
POCO won't want the smart meters notifying them of potential problems everytime someone opened the switch though.

Here the still leave meters in disconnected services so they have communication with them. Temp disconnection for work they just have to deal with though.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
POCO won't want the smart meters notifying them of potential problems every time someone opened the switch though.
Does anyone know how long it would actually take the POCO to come out and check on a meter that was pulled or if the power is shut off?
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Good on ya Don! I have often wondered why we cannot have separate compartment panels in the United States. Canada has not suffered complete collapse of it's home building industry because they require it so I'm not willing to accept that we've never done it so it can never work here. Hell I might even be willing to go a step farther and require that the cover be fitted in such a way that you cannot remove it from the cabinet unless the breaker handle is in the off position. All that requires is extended guides at each corner to keep the panel cover from being manipulated free with the breaker still on and a breaker with a handle which is larger at it's tip than it is where it comes through it's slot in the outer cover.
When you look at the Canadian design, the whole top of the panel is reserved for the service conductors and service disconnect, and no branch circuit wiring is permitted. To provide entry space for the branch circuit wiring, they mount the panel horizontally, as they don't have a rule like our rule in 240.81. That rule does not permit us to install the panel horizontally as half of the breakers would operate with the breaker "on" where the handle is in the down position.

The real remedy is at hand however. All future service installs on dwellings will have to have an exterior disconnect once the 2020 edition of the NEC is adopted in your locality. What I foresee is a lot of 3R main breaker enclosures being installed out at the meter with an Main Lug Only panelboard inside. That will be the least cost means of compliance with this mandate for exterior disconnect on all dwellings. A lot more 4 wire SER cable, add on grounding conductor busbars, and similar parts will be sold because the cable or raceway from the main breaker enclosure will now contain a feeder instead of Service Entry Conductors. But somehow I cannot see this as the TEOTWAWKI.
The problem I have with the main breaker being outside, is that there are breakers that have manufacturer's instructions that say they are not suitable where the ambient temperature is below 14°F. In addition, there is a substantial shift in the trip point at the temperature goes down. One brand show that the trip rating goes up 25% when the breaker is in a temperature of 50°C, and goes up even more as the temperature drops. In my area the normal high temperature is below 50°F for about 5 months of the year.
They tell me that it is for Firefighter safety so I should be all for it but if you want to reduce the risks to firefighters as much as is practical you Auto Fire Sprinkler the building. If we were to somehow get an exterior main breaker retrofitted on every house we would not save anywhere near the lives that we would save by giving subsidies for home fire sprinkler installations in existing homes. The firefighters will not have to be in terrible danger when they do the utility control because in almost every case the fire will be extinguished before the firefighters begin to respond to the sprinkler water flow alarm. They would arrive to a building with a cool and non deadly atmosphere and be able to simply walk in and open the Service Disconnecting Means. But just like Canada's separate compartment service connections it is too much like sense.
Yes, fire sprinklers would be a great improvement in life safety and property preservation. We have a local amendment that to the electrical code that says you don't need to install AFCIs if you have a code compliant fire sprinkler system. Our thought was that the deletion of the AFCIs would free up some money to help fund the sprinkler system, but no one has taken advantage of it so far. We added as an amendment when we adopted the 2017 code.

Only about 15% of the dwelling unit fires are related to electrical wiring or equipment, so the AFCI can only provide protection for a small percentage of the fires....the sprinkler system provides protection for 100% of the fires. Fire loss data shows the average damage for dwelling unit fire exceeds $40,000, but where fire sprinklers are installed the average damage is about $2500. The model building codes require fire sprinkler systems in dwelling units, but many areas amend them out whey they adopt the building code. There are about 105 cities in Illinois that require dwelling unit fire sprinkler sytems.
 

mikeames

Senior Member
Location
Germantown MD
Occupation
Teacher - Master Electrician - 2017 NEC
One brand show that the trip rating goes up 25% when the breaker is in a temperature of 50°C, and goes up even more as the temperature drops. In my area the normal high temperature is below 50°F for about 5 months of the year.
I didn't know it was that much. You mean 50F not 50C (122f) right? Trip rating goes up when its cool, not at 122F.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Does anyone know how long it would actually take the POCO to come out and check on a meter that was pulled or if the power is shut off?
They probably capable of knowing almost immediately, how long until someone stops by to check it out could be days in some cases.

Had a farmer that had a second transformer and service to his grain bins on the same area where his house is located. Called me one time to tell me nothing worked a the bins. I find there is no power and eventually noticed the primary fuse supplying the underground to the transformer was blown. I have some personal numbers for most the crew supervisors at this POCO so called one of them. He said that place was on his list of places to go to that day, they knew they weren't getting any feedback from that meter, and hadn't been for a couple days, but nobody called to complain about non power yet either.

So it depends on what gets higher priority at times.
 

mrj567`

Master Electrician
Location
Corpus Christi
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I worked for Rogers and their policy was "no live work", so for them the panel situation you described would be "limited live work" and that was acceptable. We were then supposed to call in a limited live work permit through the company and if the line was over 30 amps we had to throw on the full hot suit. As far as the rates go I'm not sure how they won bids with that business model but they are within the top 10 electrical contractors in the nation, so they make it work to say the least! lol
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
The problem I have with the main breaker being outside, is that there are breakers that have manufacturer's instructions that say they are not suitable where the ambient temperature is below 14°F. In addition, there is a substantial shift in the trip point at the temperature goes down. One brand show that the trip rating goes up 25% when the breaker is in a temperature of 50°C, and goes up even more as the temperature drops. In my area the normal high temperature is below 50°F for about 5 months of the year.
So what happens to a breaker when like here, winter temp can dip to minus 20o F below zero or lower at night? Would it even work?
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
So what happens to a breaker when like here, winter temp can dip to minus 20o F below zero or lower at night? Would it even work?
Yes, they would work eventually, if the overload is bad enough. I’ve spent some miserably cold mornings working on hog waters that tripped during the night. Short circuits though. Design it for normal conditions, go home, sleep well.
 

blueheels2

Senior Member
Location
Raleigh, NC
Occupation
Electrical contractor
Anybody have any idea what the available incident energy is on most 200 amp residential services and what the required PPe would be to work on it hot?
 
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