Disconnect /Reconnect Utility

Electricmo

Member
Location
Missouri
Occupation
Lineman
I’m here in SW Missouri. The coops rates around here are a little shy of CU and Liberty’s rates. We have a 25$ availability charge. I work for a coop so I’m prejudiced I guess.😁
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
I have never seen a coop with lower rates that the investor-owned utility in my state.
I am just far enough outside the city limits that I am on a coop. My rate for the first 1000 kWh is $0.129. In town, Ameren starts out at about $0.08.

Add to that, I get a “facility charge” of $38 just to be connected. All done my effective rate ends up somewhere around $0.16. The same usage on Ameren (homes 1/2 mile from me are on Ameren) would net to about $0.10.

1) Coops serve mostly rural areas. This means that the number of customers per mile of primary is a fraction of that of investor-owned utilities which mainly serve cities.
2) Coops serve fewer industrial customers which cost less per kWh to serve since the volume is so much higher.
3) While this has been changing lately, coops have historically had to purchase most of the power they sell from major utilities. I haven’t checked lately, but when I first got on a coop in the 80s, their wholesale cost to purchase electricity was just shy of the residential rate of the nearby investor-owned utility.

Maybe other states are better - I’m in Illinois where Com Ed just agreed to pay something like a $200 MM fine for bribing legislators.
1) I don’t know of one cheaper either...
2) 10 meters per mile vs 200 meters per mile..
3) co-ops are banding together and basically owning their own G&T companies. It’s a loophole. Co-ops can’t generate, but they can own G&T companies. Here avoided wholesale rate is about .045. Retail is about .11

I’m on an investor owned. Effective rate about.11
Co-op effective rate about .13
 

retirede

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
I’m here in SW Missouri. The coops rates around here are a little shy of CU and Liberty’s rates. We have a 25$ availability charge. I work for a coop so I’m prejudiced I guess.
I know things are different across the river! We have people moving your direction every day
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
California doesn't have coops that I know of but it does have publicly owned power in some municipalities. And they generally have much lower rates, and in my experience are more likely to show up for a disconnect/reconnect, and to fine you if you don't ask them to.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,Ga
. I got called to a outage once where home owner pulled a CT meter and proceeded to work in his panel. Luckily he wasn’t hurt but his breaker panel didn’t fair so well.
I've had "electricians" that wanted to do that! Of course it was already dead due to downed lines, and a generator was to be connected, but they didn't understand why it wouldn't stay dead with the meter pulled!
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I have never seen a coop with lower rates that the investor-owned utility in my state.
I am just far enough outside the city limits that I am on a coop. My rate for the first 1000 kWh is $0.129. In town, Ameren starts out at about $0.08.

Add to that, I get a “facility charge” of $38 just to be connected. All done my effective rate ends up somewhere around $0.16. The same usage on Ameren (homes 1/2 mile from me are on Ameren) would net to about $0.10.

1) Coops serve mostly rural areas. This means that the number of customers per mile of primary is a fraction of that of investor-owned utilities which mainly serve cities.
2) Coops serve fewer industrial customers which cost less per kWh to serve since the volume is so much higher.
3) While this has been changing lately, coops have historically had to purchase most of the power they sell from major utilities. I haven’t checked lately, but when I first got on a coop in the 80s, their wholesale cost to purchase electricity was just shy of the residential rate of the nearby investor-owned utility.

Maybe other states are better - I’m in Illinois where Com Ed just agreed to pay something like a $200 MM fine for bribing legislators.
I am on rural system and my rates are better than that.

Here we have summer rate and winter rate, winter has less demand and those rates run from Oct 1 to May 31.

My monthly "facilities charge" is $26.00

winter rate is .07043

summer rate is .07240

If you have electric heat (must generally have all electric heating and water heating) there is an "electric heat rider" during the winter rate period as follows:

first 1000 kWh @ normal rate (.07043 for me)

next 4000 kWh @ .06600

any additional is back to normal rate.

When gas was up electric heat often was less than gas heating to operate. I have geothermal heat pump, so it uses considerably less than resistance heat, though there is resistance back up heat if needed, plus the geothermal also dumps heat into the water heater, especially helpful during cooling season.
 

Another C10

Electrical Contractor 1987 - present
Location
Southern Cal
Occupation
Electrician NEC 2020
The biggest problem we have is electricians disconnecting/reconnecting without any inspections or permits.
I really don't care to fittle with Utility power nor does it make me feel macho, although I've had to disconnect and reconnected utilities more than I can remember, and thanks to the utility company not removing the locks for us anymore, I had to go out and buy a 500.00 key.

Utility power is very dangerous and as I've always been taught and practice, always respect the invisible energy, always disconnect the neutral last and reconnect it first. I will not let anyone or anything distract me during that 1/2 hr time frame of working with utility feeds. I treat the process very seriously, all moves are calculated, observed and carefully planned. Recently for underground fed meter sections, I found it more comforting to use the dry cardboard of the new meter box packing to isolate dangerous grounded or other phased connection points during my lug torquing.

Utility power is no joke although I cant see waiting for a crew of 3 trucks to show up, besides in California its a big ol process apparently.

I believe it goes like this ... obviously as usual get a permit .. then coordinate with the utility and city on the day to meet for the power to be disconnected, during that time the inspector approves or .. denies the installation, allowing for the utility to reconnect the power to the residence.

What I don't like about all that is .. So, utilities shuts everything down at lets say 10am ... now with no available power unless I get a generator ... I prep the area for the new flush panel removing stucco getting the opening ready for the larger panel, then remove all the branch circuits, remove the old panel, install the new panel reinstall the branch circuits, that's about 4 hours ... bond the water, bond the gas, either drive 2 rods or / reattach to the ufer, bond the hot/ cold at the water heater, thats about another 4-6 hours .. label the panel, oh ya the latest is provide a new interconnect bond ...now get the inspector back out there to approve, ... its approved, ... get utilities back out to reconnect. .. hmm .. what if it doesn't get approve .... sorry Mr homeowner, your not going to have power this evening ...

Always respect the invisible energy. never rush if having to work a utility feed ... or just call out the expert linemen.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Utility power is very dangerous and as I've always been taught and practice, always respect the invisible energy, always disconnect the neutral last and reconnect it first. I will not let anyone or anything distract me during that 1/2 hr time frame of working with utility feeds. I treat the process very seriously, all moves are calculated, observed and carefully planned. Recently for underground fed meter sections, I found it more comforting to use the dry cardboard of the new meter box packing to isolate dangerous grounded or other phased connection points during my lug torquing.
Many services around here are done with SE cable. Like you I always connect the EGC, neutral, then ungrounded conductors in that order when splicing. When reconnecting the new SE cable to the drop I always splice the neutral last. Since there's 3' of bare grounded neutral right next to the energized drop conductors I bend it down behind the ladder when splicing the ungrounded condcutors. When they're all safe and insulated I then pull the neutral back up and splice it last.
 

Electricmo

Member
Location
Missouri
Occupation
Lineman
Many services around here are done with SE cable. Like you I always connect the EGC, neutral, then ungrounded conductors in that order when splicing. When reconnecting the new SE cable to the drop I always splice the neutral last. Since there's 3' of bare grounded neutral right next to the energized drop conductors I bend it down behind the ladder when splicing the ungrounded condcutors. When they're all safe and insulated I then pull the neutral back up and splice it last.
That’s fine till something goes wrong and you become the load on the transformer.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
California doesn't have coops that I know of but it does have publicly owned power in some municipalities. And they generally have much lower rates, and in my experience are more likely to show up for a disconnect/reconnect, and to fine you if you don't ask them to.
That is basically the definition of a coop.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
That’s fine till something goes wrong and you become the load on the transformer.
When working on something energized there is always the possibility that something could go wrong. With the proper PPE and methods one should be able to minimize the potential risk.
 

Electricmo

Member
Location
Missouri
Occupation
Lineman
When working on something energized there is always the possibility that something could go wrong. With the proper PPE and methods one should be able to minimize the potential risk.
You are correct. I’ve been doing this for 31 years and have been to 2 accident scenes involving electricians hooking up 2 service entrances hot. They thought they had everything under control but found out otherwise. I know it’s a pain dealing with the PC sometimes but it can be a life saver.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
You are correct. I’ve been doing this for 31 years and have been to 2 accident scenes involving electricians hooking up 2 service entrances hot. They thought they had everything under control but found out otherwise. I know it’s a pain dealing with the PC sometimes but it can be a life saver.
Battery operated crimpers took a little of the danger out of the task simply because it is easy to hold steady in one place compared to a hand crimper
 

retirede

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
I am on rural system and my rates are better than that.

Here we have summer rate and winter rate, winter has less demand and those rates run from Oct 1 to May 31.

My monthly "facilities charge" is $26.00

winter rate is .07043

summer rate is .07240

If you have electric heat (must generally have all electric heating and water heating) there is an "electric heat rider" during the winter rate period as follows:

first 1000 kWh @ normal rate (.07043 for me)

next 4000 kWh @ .06600

any additional is back to normal rate.

When gas was up electric heat often was less than gas heating to operate. I have geothermal heat pump, so it uses considerably less than resistance heat, though there is resistance back up heat if needed, plus the geothermal also dumps heat into the water heater, especially helpful during cooling season.
My rates are constant year round.

To be fair, my coop does have special rates for winter electric heat as well as heat pumps. Somewhere around 0.075. They put it on a separate meter. BUT you can’t get that rate if you have gas run to the house, even if it’s only used for cooking.

With current NG prices, gas is still cheaper to heat with than a geothermal at 0.075.

Please don’t take my rants as me being anti-coop, I’m not. Without them many rural areas would have no electricity.
I’m simply stating facts.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
My rates are constant year round.

To be fair, my coop does have special rates for winter electric heat as well as heat pumps. Somewhere around 0.075. They put it on a separate meter. BUT you can’t get that rate if you have gas run to the house, even if it’s only used for cooking.

With current NG prices, gas is still cheaper to heat with than a geothermal at 0.075.

Please don’t take my rants as me being anti-coop, I’m not. Without them many rural areas would have no electricity.
I’m simply stating facts.
Entire state has publicly owned electric utilities here, and you are correct rural areas possibly wouldn't have electricity as investor owned would see it as too much expense and little profits. Already turning into this with the local telephone systems. Those that are locally owned (may not be publicly owned but have rural interests since that is who they serve) have upgraded their systems, many even have fiber to the home. The town nearest me and I am on their system has a bigger nationwide company that serves the local phone system and they have neglected this system and I am about done with them. I am on 50-60 year old line that always has problems and needs replaced, all they ever do is continue to but band-aids on it and are not that fast at doing that either. I'm planning to switch my land line business phone to a cell phone, it can't be any worse though over years cellular service has improved a lot at my location. Plus I can add a line to my cell phone plan for like 20 bucks a month where the land line phone that stinks cost like 60 bucks a month.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
My rates are constant year round.

To be fair, my coop does have special rates for winter electric heat as well as heat pumps. Somewhere around 0.075. They put it on a separate meter. BUT you can’t get that rate if you have gas run to the house, even if it’s only used for cooking.

With current NG prices, gas is still cheaper to heat with than a geothermal at 0.075.

Please don’t take my rants as me being anti-coop, I’m not. Without them many rural areas would have no electricity.
I’m simply stating facts.
I heard a good analogy many years ago..
Co-op power is like buying a loaf of bread at the country store. It costs a little more than the bread in a box store in the city..
It’s all about customers per mile as stated by someone earlier..

The Co-op benefit around here is customer service. An electrician calls us, we will meet you there and cut it loose, and come back later. If we get back there before your done we may even help you finish..
Weekend emergencies, we will help with that too.. get the inspection within a week. We have no problem with that.
We have enough sense to know what will pass and what won’t on a weekend emergency call...
 
Last edited:

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I heard a good analogy many years ago..
Co-op power is like buying a loaf of bread at the country store. It costs a little more than the bread in a box store in the city..
It’s all about customers per mile as stated by someone earlier..
depends on circumstances. If my power supplier were investor owned I doubt I would have the low rate I have, and the service probably wouldn't be as dependable as it is.

Same cooperative does supply power to nearby towns and subdivisions, facilities charges are lower in those areas, rates I don't remember, but if they are lower it isn't much lower. Bottom line is their budget doesn't include payments to investors instead they reinvest any funds that would otherwise be called profits back into the system.
 
Top