Cutler Hammer / Bryant Breakers

[bphgravity]

I have a JANDY POOL CONTROL PANEL with integral panelboard, timer, and pool light transformer. On the label, there is a list of breakers suitable for use in the panelboard. The label indicates Cutler Hammer "BR" along with several others. It does not specifically list Bryant breakers.

I contacted Jandy and they stated that Bryant breakers were originally labeled as suitable for use, but when CH bought out Bryant, they changed the label to CH "BR". I contacted Mark Ode from UL and he wasn't sure if Bryant breakers would be suitable for use in anything other than a Bryant listed panelboard. He is doing some research for me.

I contacted CH and they claim the CH and Bryant BR are exactly the same and interchangeable. They sent me a letter from UL dated August 11, 1998. It claims that Cutler Hammer BR breakers can be used in ANY Challenger, Westinghouse, or Bryant panelboard. However, it does not say Bryant or the other breakers can be used in a Cutler Hammer Panel. It reads and indicates a "one-way" only arrangement.

So what's your call? If the panel label doesn't list Bryant specifically but does list CH "BR" specifically, should the Bryant be approved?

 

[tom baker]

Thats following 90.3 to the letter.
Tough call. I'd look for a letter from someone to allow it.

 

[Minuteman]

Bryan, I see what you mean about the one-way issue, but I can't understand why that is a concern. Do you have an old Bryant that you want to put in the CH "BR" panel? Or, is this a philosophical question?

For what is worth, the CH "BR" breakers that I bought this week are listed to be replacement in Murray, Siemens, GE , and Square D Home Line as well. They too seem to have a one-way listing.

 

[bphgravity]

Bryan, I see what you mean about the one-way issue, but I can't understand why that is a concern. Do you have an old Bryant that you want to put in the CH "BR" panel? Or, is this a philosophical question?

This was on an inspection...

For what is worth, the CH "BR" breakers that I bought this week are listed to be replacement in Murray, Siemens, GE , and Square D Home Line as well. They too seem to have a one-way listing.

Are you sure about that? CH produces classified breakers suitable for use in those panels. A listed "BR" would not be suitable in those panels.

I know this whole topic is not the most pressing issue, however, the whole listing and labeling thing is not always cut and dry as one would expect. Apparently, a contractor purchased (bought out) a suppliers remaining stock of Bryant brakers and wants to use them everywhere and anywhere. That's all well and good expect nothing is labeled with Bryant anyomore. I don't want to tell the guy he's stuck with dozens of useless breakers but at the same time I want to make sure their use is appropriate.

 

[wireman3736]

?

For what is worth, the CH "BR" breakers that I bought this week are listed to be replacement in Murray, Siemens, GE , and Square D Home Line as well. They too seem to have a one-way listing.

The package these interchangeable breakers come in say for use with many brand panels, but I think it depends on if the panel there being installed in is approved for these breakers. I'm looking at a Siemens breaker right now and says on the top FOR USE WITH and then it lists about 20 brands, even Montgomery wards , At the end it says ONLY WHEN LOAD CENTER IS MARKED TO ACCEPT, deceiving to most.

 

[Minuteman]

I looked in a supply catalog and found more information. CH has "classified" replacement breakers for Square D QO (CHQ) and the others (CL)

CUTLER-HAMMER CL BREAKERS Have been classified by UL for use in the following loadcenters:
Crouse - Hinds
General Electric
ITE / Siemens
Murray
Thomas & Betts
Square D Homeline

 

[wireman3736]

I looked in a supply catalog and found more information. CH has "classified" replacement breakers for Square D QO (CHQ) and the others (CL)

I would be carefully on this one,they may be classified as a component but I think it may depend on the panel. As I said before at the end of the listing on the package it came in it says ONLY WHEN LOAD CENTER IS MARKED TO ACCEPT, the one in the package is distributed by connecticut electric but actually said Siemens right on it so I would say it's acceptable because Siemens panel would list this in the panel, I don't think you would find a Bryant panel or any of the other 18 on the package listing a Siemens in there panel, I could be wrong but WHO knows, this site that sells these is below, it says they will pass inspection that they meet ul but by Reading that little sentence on the package who knows.
http://www.connecticut-electric.com/online/ReplacementCircuitBreakers.pdf

 

[Minuteman]

Apparently, a contractor purchased (bought out) a suppliers remaining stock of Bryant breakers and wants to use them everywhere and anywhere. That's all well and good expect nothing is labeled with Bryant anyomore. I don't want to tell the guy he's stuck with dozens of useless breakers but at the same time I want to make sure their use is appropriate.

Bryan, it's a judgement call. I don't know how many Bryants he has. Enough for several load centers, or a just a dozen or so?

If I were the inspector, I would allow the Bryant breakers in CH type BR panels only, since Cutler Hammer bought the rights to Bryant (through Challenger and Westinghouse). But I would sort of agree not allowing them in the other clone types that are similar (Crouse Hinds, General Electric, ITE, Siemens, etc.).


Wireman, I believe what you are saying is that unless the panel says that it will accept the CH type CL, then the CL breaker still would not comply with UL. Am I right, is that your position?

FWIW, I don't know where to by Bryant breakers anymore, and in this jurisdiction, a simple breaker change out does not require an inspection. So, I would put in a CH type BR in a Bryant panel. And I stock CH type CL breakers on our service trucks.

 

[bphgravity]

Here's a nearly complete list of "classified" breakers for anyone who hasn't seen it posted before:

Manufacturer: Replaces:


Eaton (Cutler Hammer):

Square D Homeline
Crouse-Hinds MP
Siemens Q
GE THQ
Murray MP
Thomas and Betts TB

Thomas and Betts:

Westinghouse BR
Challenger C
GE THQL (GFCI only)
Murray MP
Siemens Q

Siemens:

Square D QO

Miami Breaker:

ITE (Molded-Case Versions)

Connecticut Electric and Switch:

Zinsco
Pushmatic
FPE Stablok
Wadsworth

 

[wireman3736]

Bryan, it's a judgement call. I don't know how many Bryants he has. Enough for several load centers, or a just a dozen or so?

Wireman, I believe what you are saying is that unless the panel says that it will accept the CH type CL, then the CL breaker still would not comply with UL. Am I right, is that your position?

FWIW, I don't know where to by Bryant breakers anymore, and in this jurisdiction, a simple breaker change out does not require an inspection. So, I would put in a CH type BR in a Bryant panel. And I stock CH type CL breakers on our service trucks.

I don't know if it would comply with UL or not, I'm just going by what it says on the package ONLY WHEN LOAD CENTER IS MARKED TO ACCEPT. I have been installing the ch in Bryant and Westinghouse but there's so many different breakers out there now that say there classified for use in other panels but most that I have seen have the sentence on the package, I don't know if theres easily available information out there that would answer this question, I have been told that it's more of an issue for the insurance companies trying to deny claims then the electrical inspectors, but thats just what I've been told.

 

[templdl]

UL Letter you should keep a copy of.

UL Letter you should keep a copy of.

Every once in a while this question comes up. I advise electricians to make copies of the following document in their trucks and include one with the panel where a substitution is make.
Therefore, if and when the AHJ inspects the panel the UL letter which addresses the suitability will be available.
http://www.eatonelectrical.com/unsecure/cms1/LT01221002E.PDF
Let me know if this of any help.
Dave

 

[Minuteman]

I'm just going by what it says on the package ONLY WHEN LOAD CENTER IS MARKED TO ACCEPT

The ones I buy don't come in a package. I asked the guy at the supply house today to see if he could get me a copy of such a disclaimer.

 

[wireman3736]

I have always been told that ch was an approved replacement for Bryant, Westinghouse and challenger, as it says when load centers are marked, It's when one like that Siemens in the bubble pack from Connecticut electric list 19-20 different panels when they are marked. If I don't have a disclaimer with similar wording to the one that ch put out I have concerns.

 

[Mike03a3]

The ones I buy don't come in a package. I asked the guy at the supply house today to see if he could get me a copy of such a disclaimer.

So, if you have a Bryant, Westinghouse or Challenger panel you can't add an AFCI. The type BR breaker is approved, but not the type BR AFCI.

Interesting.

 

[wireman3736]

So, if you have a Bryant, Westinghouse or Challenger panel you can't add an AFCI. The type BR breaker is approved, but not the type BR AFCI.

Interesting.

I don't know if you can go by that site listed,
http://www.eatonelectrical.com/unsecure/cms1/LT01221002E.PDF
This is dated 1998 before arc-fault breakers were easily available, there must be a more recent listing.

 

[Minuteman]

So, if you have a Bryant, Westinghouse or Challenger panel you can't add an AFCI. The type BR breaker is approved, but not the type BR AFCI.

Well, I just installed a CH type BR AFCI breaker in a Challenger panel and had it pass inspection. Good enough for me!

Watch 'em come out of the woods to jump on me now!

 

[iwire]

Well, I just installed a CH type BR AFCI breaker in a Challenger panel and had it pass inspection. Good enough for me!

Watch 'em come out of the woods to jump on me now!

I won't jump on you, I will just point out what you do today can burn your butt tomorrow.

 

[Minuteman]

I won't jump on you, I will just point out what you do today can burn your butt tomorrow.

touche'

However, the AHJ approved it.

 

[sean1]

Breaker Problem

Breaker Problem

Thanks for your replies. I did use Cutler-Hammer BR type breakers for the spa, and replaced the main. Its the original buss system that I can't get replaced, and that's where the original main breaker failure occurred.

 

[dlhoule]

I won't jump on you, I will just point out what you do today can burn your butt tomorrow.

SIR, you do provide good answers on occasion.