Contactor switching in residential lighting

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Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
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Electrician
@Fred B One other thing to stay mindful of is the rating of the contactors as you add lights, if you keep the existing system but just modify the switches, which it sounds like you will be doing.
Actually mostly just moving switches as walls are changing, the prints are not calling for added lighting but is eliminating some. One thing did find today was a lot of switched half receptacles. Metering seems to indicate MWBC on a lot of the controlled circuits. Not sure how that will work out with AFCI.
Do have question given most of the changes are just with the low voltage spdt switches, will that trigger the need for addition of an AFCI into the controlled circuit (line voltage side)? Also, what effect would be had if I have to change out a faulty contactor?
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
Tracing one of the circuits to find a jbox split was traced back to controller junction. This is what I found when I opened the box:
PSX_20201029_175412.jpg
Could find anything, not sure where to even start. Initial idea is to shut down whole panel before attempting moving any of the spaghetti.
 

Jerramundi

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Occupation
Licensed Residential Electrician

synchro

Senior Member
Location
Chicago, IL
Occupation
EE
Is there a functional issue or a listing issue with using a standard 120V switch?
Obviously you get something listed for the purpose. I'm just curious..

Good question. One thing to note is that the low voltage versions are rated for both 24VAC and 24VDC. A 120VAC version would not be adequate for switching DC.
If you're using 24VAC then I'm confident that 120VAC switches of a sufficient current rating would be more than up to the task. And so the Leviton 5657-2I should also be good for the OP's application if it's using 24VAC.
I did see some mention that 1/2-wave rectified DC is sometimes used with GE RR relays, and so that would need to be checked if it is present.
I'm not sure if there'd be any listing issue in using 120VAC rated switches at 24VAC, but personally I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
@ActionDave This might be a dumb question, but could you just install standard toggle/decora wall switches? The are rated up to 120V. The first issue I see with this, other than the question of whether or not they would work with low voltage, is the listed rating of wire size to terminal terminations... but could you just splice on a #14 AWG to the LV wire in the switch box and hook up a standard switch?
Depends on relay type. Many are type I mentioned earlier an impulse relay so to speak. They were not designed to have a continuous coil input just a momentary input to cause the output to change state so you must use a momentary type switch to control them. Plus even if coil could take continuous input, you would have to turn a conventional wall switch off then back on again to make it operate the relay whether you want lights on or off.
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
Line side of the contactor and all those with jumper between them are on same branch circuit?
Thanks for the confirmation, thought it might have been that, so it seems circuit loads could be adjusted at this location simply by adding or removing jumpers. Or even add circuit by just pulling in new HR to adjust loads.
This operation seem would explain why shutting of breakers seem to have some very interesting effects on what I would usually expect, seemingly unassociated loads would go off. For instance foyer lights and bedroom both turn off with same breaker yet neither are within proximity to each other. And why I'm having some head scratching trying to find some logic to what circuit to shut down to get a specific space off. Going to have my hands full labeling all that in the splice box right above the controller as there are no proper labels currently and have to deservice some lines coming into that spaghetti.
Another question, the 24V transformer for the controllers what would have been the normal practice in powering it, a circuit of it's own? Or shared from one of the controlled circuits? I'm leaning toward it's own circuit. Need to check. Also there is what looks like an isolated buss running down the line voltage side, but its has nothing terminating on it, what would normally terminate on this buss?
 

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
Line side of the contactor and all those with jumper between them are on same branch circuit?

That would be my guess.
Looks like multiple relays fed off the same branch circuit.

The control transformer doesn't need to be on a circuit of it's own, it's a very small load.
That is unless you wanted to isolate it from the lighting circuit for overload or short circuit purposes.

JAP>
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Usually all of the lights and receptacles that are being controlled are HR back to the relay panel, and power is picked up there, hence the jumpers. Circuiting can easily be changed there if needed.
 

Jerramundi

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Occupation
Licensed Residential Electrician
Good question. One thing to note is that the low voltage versions are rated for both 24VAC and 24VDC. A 120VAC version would not be adequate for switching DC.
If you're using 24VAC then I'm confident that 120VAC switches of a sufficient current rating would be more than up to the task. And so the Leviton 5657-2I should also be good for the OP's application if it's using 24VAC.
I did see some mention that 1/2-wave rectified DC is sometimes used with GE RR relays, and so that would need to be checked if it is present.
I'm not sure if there'd be any listing issue in using 120VAC rated switches at 24VAC, but personally I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
Aside from a listing issue, why would an AC switch "not be adequate for switching DC?" I can see a DC switch not being adequate for switching AC as there could be an inverter in the DC switch that prevents the full AC sine wave from traversing the switch... but the other way around?
 

Jerramundi

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Occupation
Licensed Residential Electrician
Depends on relay type. Many are type I mentioned earlier an impulse relay so to speak. They were not designed to have a continuous coil input just a momentary input to cause the output to change state so you must use a momentary type switch to control them. Plus even if coil could take continuous input, you would have to turn a conventional wall switch off then back on again to make it operate the relay whether you want lights on or off.
I guess I have to brush up on my relays again. We studied the heck out of them in school, but that was 5 years ago... and the amount of knowledge about business, codes, products, and theory/principle that I've shoved into my brain since then has obviously pushed some other stuff out.

My general knowledge of relays, which I don't encounter often in residential, is limited to the idea of continuous current flowing through the coil and either (1) holding a NO contact in the closed position via the magnetic field generated from continuous current flow or (2) holding a NC contact in the open position via the magnetic field generated from continuous current flow.

It makes sense if the relay is rated for momentary contact that the switch should be as well. How this "holds" the contacts in the opposite position of either NO or NC alludes me.
 

Jerramundi

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Occupation
Licensed Residential Electrician
I wish my memory was 100% photographic. Being more left-brained, it is photographic for artistic things. I mean, I can draw you a near exact floorplan and layout of the electrical system of a house I was in 5 years ago from memory... but actual factual knowledge is a little bit more difficult for me. I have to read things like 5 times before they stick. Hands-on I adapt fast. But memorizing facts is a little trickier :/
 

synchro

Senior Member
Location
Chicago, IL
Occupation
EE
Aside from a listing issue, why would an AC switch "not be adequate for switching DC?" I can see a DC switch not being adequate for switching AC as there could be an inverter in the DC switch that prevents the full AC sine wave from traversing the switch... but the other way around?
AC switching is easier because the voltage goes through zero and therefore can extinguish the arc every half-cycle. DC is capable of sustaining an arc without having to restrike it. A lot of switches are dual rated for both AC and DC but with a much lower voltage rating for DC (and sometimes a lower current rating as well).

 

Jerramundi

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Occupation
Licensed Residential Electrician
AC switching is easier because the voltage goes through zero and therefore can extinguish the arc every half-cycle. DC is capable of sustaining an arc without having to restrike it. A lot of switches are dual rated for both AC and DC but with a much lower voltage rating for DC (and sometimes a lower current rating as well).

Oh, so on a DC momentary contact switch the arc is maintained? Interesting. So wouldn't that constitute continuous current flow either way? Whether the DC switch is maintained or momentary? I could see maintained allowing comparatively more current through and possibly damaging the coil. Is that why others have suggested the switch be momentary contact?
 

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
It makes sense if the relay is rated for momentary contact that the switch should be as well. How this "holds" the contacts in the opposite position of either NO or NC alludes me.


On a Magnetically Latched contactor, along with the magnetism created when the pull in coil is energized, there is also a permanent magnet in the background that comes into play.

Through a control relay, when you send power to the coil, that magnetism closes the contacts, then, the permanent magnet takes hold and keeps the contacts closed.

Once the permanent magnet takes hold, there Is no longer any need for the coil to remain energized and can be removed from the control circuit by the coil clearing contacts incorporated into contactor itself.

That way the coil doesn't remain energized and burn the coil out.

Even in a loss of utility power without a 2 wire control relay in the circuit , a magnetically latched contactor would remain pulled in forever since the permanent magnet has got it held.

To "unlatch" a magnetic contactor a signal must be sent to the permanent magnet through a rectifier to reverse its polarity of the magnet so it will let the contactor fall open.

A mechanically latched contactor works in much the same manner except instead of a magnet, it uses a mechanical means to latch and unlatch the contactor by sending a control signal to a "Latch" or an "Unlatch" solenoid to activate it.

The momentary signal instead of a maintained is so you wont be needlessly be burning up the coil.

JAP>
 

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
Sending continuous power to a coil on a mechanically latched or Mechanically held contactor would defeat their purpose.

If you were going to do that, you had just as well use a standard electrically held contactor.

Hence on every mechanically held or magnetically latched contactor there will either be some type of coil clearing contact to remove the power to the latch and unlatch coild if a maintained switch is used, or, if not, a momentary switch will be in play.

JAP>
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Oh, so on a DC momentary contact switch the arc is maintained? Interesting. So wouldn't that constitute continuous current flow either way? Whether the DC switch is maintained or momentary? I could see maintained allowing comparatively more current through and possibly damaging the coil. Is that why others have suggested the switch be momentary contact?
Not necessarily is the arc automatically maintained when switching DC current, the deal is that the arc is easier to extinguish when switching an AC circuit because voltage crosses zero every half cycle. DC the voltage remains constant and contines to feed the arc until the gap between contacts becomes large enough the voltage can no longer maintain that arc. The higher the DC voltage the more gap is needed to extinguish the arc.
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
Tracing one of the circuits to find a jbox split was traced back to controller junction. This is what I found when I opened the box:
View attachment 2554129
Could find anything, not sure where to even start. Initial idea is to shut down whole panel before attempting moving any of the spaghetti.
I'm glad I shut it all down, found these
PSX_20201102_190157.jpg PSX_20201102_190043.jpg PSX_20201102_190125.jpg
All these sliced lines, whoever did install didn't know how to skin NM or cared to pay attention to fix it after they cut it up. I wonder about the rest of the installation.
 

Jerramundi

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Occupation
Licensed Residential Electrician
All these sliced lines, whoever did install didn't know how to skin NM or cared to pay attention to fix it after they cut it up. I wonder about the rest of the installation.
And that's why I never do a long cut when sheathing romex.

I'm not a romex guy, so you true romex guys might laugh at this, but I always sheath just the first 1" and then use two hand tools, such as side cutters and needle nose, to pull two wires in opposite directions to split the jacket. Then I just trim back the excess jacket with a dykes and remove that first 1" of wire that I pinched down with my side cutters.
 
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