Center grounded Delta to 3 phase exhaust fan

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Kevin15640

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Location
Roanoke Texas
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Journeyman Electrician
I’m looking to wire a Three phase motor from a center grounded delta with a high leg. I’m not very experienced with center grounded deltas. There’s no wiring diagram on the motor. The wires have been disconnected by a previous electricIan. I wanted more information on how to wire the motor.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
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Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
No different that connecting a motor to any other 3 phase supply. Does not matter where the high leg goes on the motor. Just like any other, if the rotation is wrong just swap any 2 leads. It should be mentioned that your high leg should be in the middle position in panels breakers, starters, etc..
 

don_resqcapt19

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Location
Illinois
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retired electrician
So ... not just any two leads, except at the motor itself.
With the change in the scope of Article 210 in the 2017 code to include motor circuit conductors, in a building with more than one voltage system, the rotation change must always be made at the motor. I expect that this is not enforced and no one actually changes motor rotation at the motor.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
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engineer
With the change in the scope of Article 210 in the 2017 code to include motor circuit conductors, in a building with more than one voltage system, the rotation change must always be made at the motor. I expect that this is not enforced and no one actually changes motor rotation at the motor.
Usually easier to get at the wires on the contactor.
 

epelectric33

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Location
SD
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Electrical Consulting/Inspection/Master
With the change in the scope of Article 210 in the 2017 code to include motor circuit conductors, in a building with more than one voltage system, the rotation change must always be made at the motor. I expect that this is not enforced and no one actually changes motor rotation at the motor.
I am unfamiliar with this requirement that rotation change must be made at the motor. Can you please provide the specific article that requires this. Thank you.
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
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Registered Professional Engineer
After thinking it through a little more thoroughly, I realize that switching any two wires at the the output of the contactor won't move the B (high-leg) phase from the center terminal.
408.3 specifies phase sequence for busses. I'm not sure whether it also applies to breakers, fuses & contactors. (but it could never hurt to follow it)
 

don_resqcapt19

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Location
Illinois
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retired electrician
I am unfamiliar with this requirement that rotation change must be made at the motor. Can you please provide the specific article that requires this. Thank you.
It results from the requirement in 210.5(C)(1). Prior to the 2017 code, this did not apply to motor circuit conductors.
210.1 Scope. (2014 code)
This article covers branch circuits except for branch circuits that supply only motor loads, which are covered in Article 430. Provisions of this article and Article 430 apply to branch circuits with combination loads.
210.1 Scope. (2017 code)
This article provides the general requirements for branch circuits.
The conductors from the starter to the motor are branch circuit conductors and with the change in scope of Article 210 in the 2017 code, the indentification requirements of 210.5(C) apply to the motor branch circuit. If you change the rotation at the starter, the conductors between the starter and the motor are no longer correctly identified by phase as required by the rule in 210.5(C).
 

Hv&Lv

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-
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Engineer/Technician
I’m still not sure I follow..
since it isn’t DC or from more than one nominal system in the building, 210.5(c) Shouldn’t come into play.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Location
Illinois
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retired electrician
I’m still not sure I follow..
since it isn’t DC or from more than one nominal system in the building, 210.5(c) Shouldn’t come into play.
My original post said if there was more than one voltage system. If there isn't, that is not an issue.
 

epelectric33

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Location
SD
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Electrical Consulting/Inspection/Master
It results from the requirement in 210.5(C)(1). Prior to the 2017 code, this did not apply to motor circuit conductors.


The conductors from the starter to the motor are branch circuit conductors and with the change in scope of Article 210 in the 2017 code, the indentification requirements of 210.5(C) apply to the motor branch circuit. If you change the rotation at the starter, the conductors between the starter and the motor are no longer correctly identified by phase as required by the rule in 210.5(C).
Ok I can get on board with that logic, but I would say to be clear that it is not that you can't change at the contactor its to say that if you do then you have to re-identify at the motor as well. I only say this because some motor connections would take a long time to swap rather than at the contactor, but you would just need to re-identify to be code compliant. Would you agree with this?
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Ok I can get on board with that logic, but I would say to be clear that it is not that you can't change at the contactor its to say that if you do then you have to re-identify at the motor as well. I only say this because some motor connections would take a long time to swap rather than at the contactor, but you would just need to re-identify to be code compliant. Would you agree with this?
I doubt 1 in 100 electrical people know that the seemingly innocent word changes mean you have to cease a widespread and entirely safe practice.
 

Hv&Lv

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Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
Ok I can get on board with that logic, but I would say to be clear that it is not that you can't change at the contactor its to say that if you do then you have to re-identify at the motor as well. I only say this because some motor connections would take a long time to swap rather than at the contactor, but you would just need to re-identify to be code compliant. Would you agree with this?
I disagree.
As long as the system is identified by nominal system, ie ryb for 120/208 and boy for 277/480 and noted, then the requirement has been satisfied and all that’s required.
No need to change any colors at the contactor when a phase correction swap is made.
 

epelectric33

Member
Location
SD
Occupation
Electrical Consulting/Inspection/Master
I disagree.
As long as the system is identified by nominal system, ie ryb for 120/208 and boy for 277/480 and noted, then the requirement has been satisfied and all that’s required.
No need to change any colors at the contactor when a phase correction swap is made.
I was under the impression we were talking about the system having a "high leg" and thus it should be centered and always identified. Am I missing something about this post? Also, it doesn't mater which two you swap if you do not re-identify them then at the motor end it will not be a true representation of what phase it actually is on the system. I believe that is the intention of this code change.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Location
Illinois
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retired electrician
I disagree.
As long as the system is identified by nominal system, ie ryb for 120/208 and boy for 277/480 and noted, then the requirement has been satisfied and all that’s required.
No need to change any colors at the contactor when a phase correction swap is made.
If you change the rotation at the starter, the colors no longer correctly represent the phase and the code requires the identification by both phase and voltage system.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Ok I can get on board with that logic, but I would say to be clear that it is not that you can't change at the contactor its to say that if you do then you have to re-identify at the motor as well. I only say this because some motor connections would take a long time to swap rather than at the contactor, but you would just need to re-identify to be code compliant. Would you agree with this?
I can't imagine anyone following this rule and changing the rotation at the motor for that very reason. Part of my substantial for my PI to add an exception so that motor circuit conductors did not have to comply with this was that no matter what the code language says. the rotation will be changed at the motor starter, and a rule that is not going to be complied with does not belong in the code.
 
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