When is a box not required for NM cable? We are building a new garage. The electrician poked the NM cable thru the exterior wall for several porch style lights. Because the exterior is Hardy Plank, he says that he doesn't have room for a box. I was under the impression that all terminations had to be inside a box.
Box not required?
- Thread starter americom
- Start date
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electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: Box not required?
I am not sure what Hardy plank is but I am sure there must be a box.
I am not sure what Hardy plank is but I am sure there must be a box.
Re: Box not required?
Hardy Plank is a wood looking siding product. It is made from silica or cement. Tough to cut, but lasts a lifetime. The electrician didn't install any boxes, just a whole for the NM cable to hang out. He screwed the mounting bracket that normally screws to the box to the siding. His connections are under the base of the lighting fixture, between the fixture and the siding.
Hardy Plank is a wood looking siding product. It is made from silica or cement. Tough to cut, but lasts a lifetime. The electrician didn't install any boxes, just a whole for the NM cable to hang out. He screwed the mounting bracket that normally screws to the box to the siding. His connections are under the base of the lighting fixture, between the fixture and the siding.
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: Box not required?
We have a few builders who use Hardi-plank. We do one of two things:
For lights;
1). dead end lights and cut pancake in on final with a roto-zip and tile cutting bit.
2). dead end lights and use a 2-piece siding block made by Arlington #8081F.
For receptacles;
1). cut-in old work box using roto-zip and tile cutting bit.
2). use a 2-piece siding block by Arlington #8091F.
There are even other options, but we've found these to work best for most applications. Todd
We have a few builders who use Hardi-plank. We do one of two things:
For lights;
1). dead end lights and cut pancake in on final with a roto-zip and tile cutting bit.
2). dead end lights and use a 2-piece siding block made by Arlington #8081F.
For receptacles;
1). cut-in old work box using roto-zip and tile cutting bit.
2). use a 2-piece siding block by Arlington #8091F.
There are even other options, but we've found these to work best for most applications. Todd
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: Box not required?
I tried to use an old work box on a new installation, my home. The inspector made me place 2x4 behind the boxes and screw them to the 2x. I had lap siding and made 6x6 cedar blocks so that it was a clean finish.
I wanted to have all my boxes hanging flush.
Why is an old work box OK for old work but not for new work?
MP
I tried to use an old work box on a new installation, my home. The inspector made me place 2x4 behind the boxes and screw them to the 2x. I had lap siding and made 6x6 cedar blocks so that it was a clean finish.
I wanted to have all my boxes hanging flush.
Why is an old work box OK for old work but not for new work?
MP
Re: Box not required?
314.25(B) Exposed Combustible Wall or Ceiling Finish. Where a luminaire (fixture) canopy or pan is used, any combustible wall or ceiling finish exposed between the edge of the canopy or pan and the outlet box shall be covered with noncombustible material.
Because heat from a short circuit, from a ground fault, or due to overlamping could create a fire hazard within a fixture canopy or pan, any exposed combustible wall or ceiling space between the edge of the outlet box and the perimeter of the luminaire is required to be covered with noncombustible material. The noncombustible material need not be metal. Glass fiber pads commonly provided as thermal barriers within the ceiling pan of luminaires can be used to meet this requirement. Where the wall or ceiling finish is concrete, tile, gypsum, plaster, or other noncombustible material, the requirements of this section do not apply.
410.10 Space for Conductors.
Canopies and outlet boxes taken together shall provide adequate space so that luminaire (fixture) conductors and their connecting devices can be properly installed.
Going back to the installation instructions, You will find they do not except the canopy only as adequate space for terminations, And only a box would allow this requirement to be meet.
314.25(B) Exposed Combustible Wall or Ceiling Finish. Where a luminaire (fixture) canopy or pan is used, any combustible wall or ceiling finish exposed between the edge of the canopy or pan and the outlet box shall be covered with noncombustible material.
Because heat from a short circuit, from a ground fault, or due to overlamping could create a fire hazard within a fixture canopy or pan, any exposed combustible wall or ceiling space between the edge of the outlet box and the perimeter of the luminaire is required to be covered with noncombustible material. The noncombustible material need not be metal. Glass fiber pads commonly provided as thermal barriers within the ceiling pan of luminaires can be used to meet this requirement. Where the wall or ceiling finish is concrete, tile, gypsum, plaster, or other noncombustible material, the requirements of this section do not apply.
410.10 Space for Conductors.
Canopies and outlet boxes taken together shall provide adequate space so that luminaire (fixture) conductors and their connecting devices can be properly installed.
Going back to the installation instructions, You will find they do not except the canopy only as adequate space for terminations, And only a box would allow this requirement to be meet.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Box not required?
But if you think about it how many fixtures have we installed that are larger than the box that they mount to and if the surface is combustable the wires are right on it. but no body see's that? so are we suppose to get a coller to close the gap?
But if you think about it how many fixtures have we installed that are larger than the box that they mount to and if the surface is combustable the wires are right on it. but no body see's that? so are we suppose to get a coller to close the gap?
landelectric
Member
- Location
- Colorado
Re: Box not required?
Americom, Here is the problem:
You referred in your post to your "Electrician".
You do NOT have an Electrician working on your house.
How do I know this for sure ??
Placing fixture boxes where needed (regardless of the siding type) is fundamental to practicing the trade of Electrical Wiring & Lighting.
You have a Handyman wiring your house.
[ February 27, 2003, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: landelectric ]
Americom, Here is the problem:
You referred in your post to your "Electrician".
You do NOT have an Electrician working on your house.
How do I know this for sure ??
Placing fixture boxes where needed (regardless of the siding type) is fundamental to practicing the trade of Electrical Wiring & Lighting.
You have a Handyman wiring your house.
[ February 27, 2003, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: landelectric ]
Re: Box not required?
Your electrician said "Theres No room for a box because you used HardiPlank"? If there's room for studs ,There's room for a box. Years back, I picked up work Pre-Inspecting New residential and I noticed the same thing in the 'County'. Seems like with a lack of City Inspectors and Homeowners awareness, Mr WannaBe Electric (trying to save money)will try to slide alot pass you. IMO and most AHJ's around Tx., we Have to use a box.
Your electrician said "Theres No room for a box because you used HardiPlank"? If there's room for studs ,There's room for a box. Years back, I picked up work Pre-Inspecting New residential and I noticed the same thing in the 'County'. Seems like with a lack of City Inspectors and Homeowners awareness, Mr WannaBe Electric (trying to save money)will try to slide alot pass you. IMO and most AHJ's around Tx., we Have to use a box.
mvannevel
Senior Member
- Location
- Hesperia, Michigan
Re: Box not required?
Right on the nose Van. Article 300-15 requires a box, and this installation doesn't meet any of the other requirements in that article that would permit not having a box. As far as the fixture canopy being larger than the boxes, I don't really see that as an issue. If the box is flush with, or extends from the finished wall surface as required in 370-20 ('99 code), even if the canopy is larger than the box, it should be a good, safe installation. We require boxes for fixtures and require them to be flush with the siding, J-block, Easy-block, or whatever is used.
Right on the nose Van. Article 300-15 requires a box, and this installation doesn't meet any of the other requirements in that article that would permit not having a box. As far as the fixture canopy being larger than the boxes, I don't really see that as an issue. If the box is flush with, or extends from the finished wall surface as required in 370-20 ('99 code), even if the canopy is larger than the box, it should be a good, safe installation. We require boxes for fixtures and require them to be flush with the siding, J-block, Easy-block, or whatever is used.
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: Box not required?
The nice thing about the Arlington 8081F and 8091F is that they are listed as the box as well. No need for a seperate pancake and your fixture always sits nice and flat.
The nice thing about the Arlington 8081F and 8091F is that they are listed as the box as well. No need for a seperate pancake and your fixture always sits nice and flat.
mark m.
Member
- Location
- New Jersey
Re: Box not required?
I AM NOT SURE WHAT HARDY PLANK IS MYSELF, BUT I WOULD USE A ONE PIECE PHYPON MADE BY ARLINGTON.
IT IS THE SHAPE OF A STOP SIGN & HAS A BUILT IN PANCAKE WORKS WELL WITH VINYL & CLAPBOARD SIDING.
I AM NOT SURE WHAT HARDY PLANK IS MYSELF, BUT I WOULD USE A ONE PIECE PHYPON MADE BY ARLINGTON.
IT IS THE SHAPE OF A STOP SIGN & HAS A BUILT IN PANCAKE WORKS WELL WITH VINYL & CLAPBOARD SIDING.
hbendillo
Senior Member
- Location
- South carolina
Re: Box not required?
To jxofaltrds:
About your old work box on new work. I am not sure these so called old work boxes are actually approved for use by code or in particular jurisdictions. However, I and a lot of other people have used them on ocassion. Obviously securing a box to the structure of a wall or ceiling is a more sound installation. Since the structure is available to you during construction, an inspector expects you to use the best method possible to secure your boxes. Since you would have to remove finishes to install boxes in an existing residence, the old work boxes are handy for isolated instances but I would not use them any extensive rewiring project.
To jxofaltrds:
About your old work box on new work. I am not sure these so called old work boxes are actually approved for use by code or in particular jurisdictions. However, I and a lot of other people have used them on ocassion. Obviously securing a box to the structure of a wall or ceiling is a more sound installation. Since the structure is available to you during construction, an inspector expects you to use the best method possible to secure your boxes. Since you would have to remove finishes to install boxes in an existing residence, the old work boxes are handy for isolated instances but I would not use them any extensive rewiring project.
mvannevel
Senior Member
- Location
- Hesperia, Michigan
Re: Box not required?
Why wouldn't an old work box be allowed by code? Granted, like you said, it's generally better to fasten the box to the building frame, but installation of these boxes meets the requirements of 370-23 ('99 code) for supports. Maybe "old work box" is a misnomer. Depending on where you are, they are also refered to as cut-in boxes. Depending on the siding type, style, and installation (and of course, the customers wishes for a fixture or outlet to be installed in just the right location) they are a good solution. Many times, you aren't able to know exactly where the box needs to be placed until the siding has been installed. By then the interior walls are finished and an old work box is the best solution. That having been said, you still have to meet the requirements of 370-27(Ex)in order to use them for fixture mounting. Just my opinion on this.
[ March 04, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: mvannevel ]
Why wouldn't an old work box be allowed by code? Granted, like you said, it's generally better to fasten the box to the building frame, but installation of these boxes meets the requirements of 370-23 ('99 code) for supports. Maybe "old work box" is a misnomer. Depending on where you are, they are also refered to as cut-in boxes. Depending on the siding type, style, and installation (and of course, the customers wishes for a fixture or outlet to be installed in just the right location) they are a good solution. Many times, you aren't able to know exactly where the box needs to be placed until the siding has been installed. By then the interior walls are finished and an old work box is the best solution. That having been said, you still have to meet the requirements of 370-27(Ex)in order to use them for fixture mounting. Just my opinion on this.
[ March 04, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: mvannevel ]
s.d. cronk
Member
- Location
- Ohio
Re: Box not required?
I think that you are allowed to use "old work" type box on new construction as long as you complied with 314.23c for the installation. I believe that was added in the 1999 NEC 370.23c to solve that question.
I think that you are allowed to use "old work" type box on new construction as long as you complied with 314.23c for the installation. I believe that was added in the 1999 NEC 370.23c to solve that question.
hbendillo
Senior Member
- Location
- South carolina
Re: Box not required?
Don't get me wrong I like the boxes but would be careful about using them especially for hanging light fixtures. I would consider most light fixture boxes as a potential for a 50 lb. fixture at some time. Don't know if I would trust these boxes in that case. If you waited to use the boxes on a finished wall so that you could more accurately place them, you still have to get wiring to them. Hopefully one side of the wall would be unfinished. If I were an inspector I would prefer them not to be used on new construction except in special circumstances. However, I do not know if it would be enforceable.
Don't get me wrong I like the boxes but would be careful about using them especially for hanging light fixtures. I would consider most light fixture boxes as a potential for a 50 lb. fixture at some time. Don't know if I would trust these boxes in that case. If you waited to use the boxes on a finished wall so that you could more accurately place them, you still have to get wiring to them. Hopefully one side of the wall would be unfinished. If I were an inspector I would prefer them not to be used on new construction except in special circumstances. However, I do not know if it would be enforceable.
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