230V Delta?

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
add the voltages he mentioned up, then divide by square root of three and you get ~248. Neutral point is not solid and has drifted from the true neutral point.
Add: maybe better wording would be grounded point has drifted away from the actual neutral point.
A way to intentionally get those voltages is to take ungrounded delta, connect three resistors in a wye configuration, two of them will be same resistance to get 137 volts across them and the other one with proper resistance to get 157 across it. Then ground the "wye point" that is not truly centered between all three corners of the delta supply.

Whatever is going on in OP's situation is probably similar but maybe not intentional. Those voltages possibly change as loads change as well as it will shift "neutral" to a different position when the loads change.

Ground fault detection lights with one different lamp than the other two could easily do this also.
 

11bgrunt

Pragmatist
Location
TEXAS
Occupation
Electric Utility Reliability Coordinator
Ungrounded Delta.
Each year I remind Electricians complaining of weird L-G voltages, there are only three voltage measurements. All are phase to phase.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Ungrounded Delta.
Each year I remind Electricians complaining of weird L-G voltages, there are only three voltage measurements. All are phase to phase.
So it is always safe to touch any of the "phases" when you are likely at least partially grounded?
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
It is unfortunate how many electricians do not understand system grounding, capacitive coupling, high impedance meters, etc.
In my first electronics class, (age 13) we did a lab on series L-C-R circuits. Without vector or complex mathematics available, and without the understanding that the sum of the instantaneous voltages in a loop much be zero, the voltages looked completely anomalous -- the sum of voltages on each component added up to a lot more than the applied voltage.

Being a victim of old-school schooling, I tried to manipulate the experimental data to fit what I had been told, rather than accept what the meters actually displayed and try to find an adequate hypothesis about what was actually going on.
 

bigbach007

Member
Location
PA, USA
Occupation
Engineer
You need a separate EGC for corner ground and ungrounded systems as well beyond the service or first means of disconnect. So yes you run 4 wires with branch circuits and feeders, or 5 if there is a neutral.

Corner ground and ungrounded systems are still referred to as three phase three wire systems though. If you have a three phase four wire "system" that means there is a neutral conductor involved even if it has no load connected to it.

I work in an old steel mill in PA and most of our substations have ungrounded delta transformers. What brought me to this thread is that I'm trying to understand what is the code on EGCs for ungrounded delta systems? We bring 46kV into the plant and distribute 6.9kV around the plant to the substations mostly via underground PILC cable. When these lead cables blow and we replace them with dry cables, we're already usually over our conduit fills because the old lead cable is a much smaller diameter. Then til you add a ground wire, the conduits are really full. We've had contractors insist on pulling a ground wire with the current carrying conductors in the past because of 250.186. In order to get everything to fit in the existing underground conduits, we usually have to reduce the cable size. Fortunately we can get away with that in some places but in others, we need to maintain that capacity of the existing PILC cable. When I read 250.186 it says, where an ac system operating at over 1000 volts is grounded at any point, a grounded conductor shall be installed and routed with the ungrounded conductors to each service disconnecting means and shall be connected to each disconnecting means grounded conductor terminal or bus. But if the system is ungrounded (and there are equipment grounds present to grounding electrodes at each substation) is the EGC needed? What purpose does it serve other than bonding unitsub to unitsub? None of the old PILC cables have a ground wire pulled with them in the conduit. If anyone has run into this and can point me to a particular NEC article I would appreciate it.
 
I work in an old steel mill in PA and most of our substations have ungrounded delta transformers. What brought me to this thread is that I'm trying to understand what is the code on EGCs for ungrounded delta systems? We bring 46kV into the plant and distribute 6.9kV around the plant to the substations mostly via underground PILC cable. When these lead cables blow and we replace them with dry cables, we're already usually over our conduit fills because the old lead cable is a much smaller diameter. Then til you add a ground wire, the conduits are really full. We've had contractors insist on pulling a ground wire with the current carrying conductors in the past because of 250.186. In order to get everything to fit in the existing underground conduits, we usually have to reduce the cable size. Fortunately we can get away with that in some places but in others, we need to maintain that capacity of the existing PILC cable. When I read 250.186 it says, where an ac system operating at over 1000 volts is grounded at any point, a grounded conductor shall be installed and routed with the ungrounded conductors to each service disconnecting means and shall be connected to each disconnecting means grounded conductor terminal or bus. But if the system is ungrounded (and there are equipment grounds present to grounding electrodes at each substation) is the EGC needed? What purpose does it serve other than bonding unitsub to unitsub? None of the old PILC cables have a ground wire pulled with them in the conduit. If anyone has run into this and can point me to a particular NEC article I would appreciate it.
yes you still need an EGC bonding everything together with an ungrounded system.. it bonds and protects against touch potentials and allows ground detectors to work, and clears line to line faults. There is actually very little difference in grounding and bonding between and ungrounded and a grounded system. The only difference is there is not a main bonding jumper
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If the conduit is metallic, it can be the EGC. You said old steel mill - that possibly means old enough there wasn't non metallic conduit when it was first installed?
 
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