210.8(F) GFCI Protection

[FdonaldK]

There is alot of confusion concerning NEC's changes with 210.8(F) and HVAC installations. I understand that the AC disconnect is now considered an outlet and it needs GFCI protection. What I'm hoping someone can clarify is does that mean a GFCI breaker needs to be installed in the AC disconnect feeding the HVAC equipment? - OR- Does it mean the breaker feeding the AC disconnect back at the panel needs to be a GFCI breaker? - OR - Have I misunderstood this altogether?

Thank you,
Fred Kreusch
ABLE Power Products

 

[rc/retired]

I personally don't believe the disconnect is an outlet. I believe it is a switch.
That said, I believe the J-box in the condensing unit is the outlet and requires GFCI protection.
Thus, you can install the GFCI protection in the panel or disconnect.
Check with your AHJ to see if it's even required at this point.
Good luck,

Ron

 

[FdonaldK]

I personally don't believe the disconnect is an outlet. I believe it is a switch.
That said, I believe the J-box in the condensing unit is the outlet and requires GFCI protection.
Thus, you can install the GFCI protection in the panel or disconnect.
Check with your AHJ to see if it's even required at this point.
Good luck,

Ron

Thank you Ron, I agree with you, I don't consider the AC Disconnect an outlet either but the confusion is whether NEC is now considering this "switch" an "outlet". Here's the link and the excerpt I was referring to. Thanks again, Fred

210.8(F) GFCI Protection. Outdoor Outlets.

An “Outlet”, according to the NEC Article 100 definition, is a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

www.electricallicenserenewal.com

An “Outlet”, according to the NEC Article 100 definition, is a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

Many people make the mistake of thinking that only receptacles can be “outlets”. A receptacle is one kind of outlet, but so is a hard-wired connection such as a smoke detector, or a surface mounted luminaire, or even the point on an outdoor air conditioner system where the circuit connects to the disconnecting means supplying the AC unit.

In the 2020 NEC, all outdoor “outlets” for dwellings, other than lighting, electric snow-melting, deicing, or pipeline heating, that are supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts to ground or less, 50 amperes or less, shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. This is a big change!

Example: A 240V, single phase, outdoor, dwelling unit air conditioner has two ungrounded conductors that are each 120V to ground and 240V phase to phase. If this air conditioner is rated 50 amps or less, then GFCI protection is now required for the “outlet”. How about an outdoor well pump?

 

[retirede]

Thank you Ron, I agree with you, I don't consider the AC Disconnect an outlet either but the confusion is whether NEC is now considering this "switch" an "outlet". Here's the link and the excerpt I was referring to. Thanks again, Fred

210.8(F) GFCI Protection. Outdoor Outlets.

An “Outlet”, according to the NEC Article 100 definition, is a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

www.electricallicenserenewal.com

An “Outlet”, according to the NEC Article 100 definition, is a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

Many people make the mistake of thinking that only receptacles can be “outlets”. A receptacle is one kind of outlet, but so is a hard-wired connection such as a smoke detector, or a surface mounted luminaire, or even the point on an outdoor air conditioner system where the circuit connects to the disconnecting means supplying the AC unit.

In the 2020 NEC, all outdoor “outlets” for dwellings, other than lighting, electric snow-melting, deicing, or pipeline heating, that are supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts to ground or less, 50 amperes or less, shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. This is a big change!

Example: A 240V, single phase, outdoor, dwelling unit air conditioner has two ungrounded conductors that are each 120V to ground and 240V phase to phase. If this air conditioner is rated 50 amps or less, then GFCI protection is now required for the “outlet”. How about an outdoor well pump?

When I had a Franklin deep well pump, I considered the connection to the control box as the outlet (which was in the house).

 

[don_resqcapt19]

There is alot of confusion concerning NEC's changes with 210.8(F) and HVAC installations. I understand that the AC disconnect is now considered an outlet and it needs GFCI protection. What I'm hoping someone can clarify is does that mean a GFCI breaker needs to be installed in the AC disconnect feeding the HVAC equipment? - OR- Does it mean the breaker feeding the AC disconnect back at the panel needs to be a GFCI breaker? - OR - Have I misunderstood this altogether?

Thank you,
Fred Kreusch
ABLE Power Products

Where the code requires that an outlet be GFCI protected, the GFCI device can be installed on any point in the circuit that will result in the GFCI tripping if there is a ground fault on the load side of the outlet. The most reasonable location for the HVAC GFCI protection would be the branch breaker that feeds the AFCI, but it could be installed at the disconnect and be compliant....it could even be the main breaker in the panel that supplies the HVAC breaker.

 

[FdonaldK]

Thank you Ron and thank you Don - much appreciated. This information is what I was looking for.

 

[kwired]

Thank you Ron, I agree with you, I don't consider the AC Disconnect an outlet either but the confusion is whether NEC is now considering this "switch" an "outlet". Here's the link and the excerpt I was referring to. Thanks again, Fred

210.8(F) GFCI Protection. Outdoor Outlets.

An “Outlet”, according to the NEC Article 100 definition, is a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

www.electricallicenserenewal.com

An “Outlet”, according to the NEC Article 100 definition, is a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

Many people make the mistake of thinking that only receptacles can be “outlets”. A receptacle is one kind of outlet, but so is a hard-wired connection such as a smoke detector, or a surface mounted luminaire, or even the point on an outdoor air conditioner system where the circuit connects to the disconnecting means supplying the AC unit.

In the 2020 NEC, all outdoor “outlets” for dwellings, other than lighting, electric snow-melting, deicing, or pipeline heating, that are supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts to ground or less, 50 amperes or less, shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. This is a big change!

Example: A 240V, single phase, outdoor, dwelling unit air conditioner has two ungrounded conductors that are each 120V to ground and 240V phase to phase. If this air conditioner is rated 50 amps or less, then GFCI protection is now required for the “outlet”. How about an outdoor well pump?

I think question kind of answered, but consider this - the AC unit is the utilization equipment, the supply conductors between the disconnect and the AC unit is still part of the "wiring system", so therefore the point of termination of those conductors in the unit is the "outlet" location.

 

[Another C10]

Lets just make the whole panel GFI and AFCI, That way we can all know were covered ... nothing worse than taking little bites when starving.

 

[FdonaldK]

I think question kind of answered, but consider this - the AC unit is the utilization equipment, the supply conductors between the disconnect and the AC unit is still part of the "wiring system", so therefore the point of termination of those conductors in the unit is the "outlet" location.

Thanks kwired, so just to confirm and to support another similar response - the location of the "outlet" and therefore the location of the GFCI, should be where the power enters the condenser or "unit". Not inside the AC disconnect. Yes?

 

[kwired]

Thanks kwired, so just to confirm and to support another similar response - the location of the "outlet" and therefore the location of the GFCI, should be where the power enters the condenser or "unit". Not inside the AC disconnect. Yes?

Not necessarily, GFCI at the beginning of the branch circuit still provides protection at the "outlet".

Unlike the general AFCI requirements that you must protect the entire branch circuit this GFCI rule only requires protection at the outlet, so the device can be anywhere that still provides said protection, even if it were a feeder or service device it would comply. Feeder or service device may have some downsides if you did it that way but does meet the rules.

 

[FdonaldK]

Thanks again, kwired, and excuse my ignorance. Let me ask this question a different way - Where are the acceptable locations for a GFCI breaker to meet the code requirements of NEC 210.8(F)? I'm hoping to avoid using the AC disconnect and would prefer the J-box inside the condensing unit or back at the circuit breaker panel feeding the AC disconnect / unit or...?

 

[kwired]

Thanks again, kwired, and excuse my ignorance. Let me ask this question a different way - Where are the acceptable locations for a GFCI breaker to meet the code requirements of NEC 210.8(F)? I'm hoping to avoid using the AC disconnect and would prefer the J-box inside the condensing unit or back at the circuit breaker panel feeding the AC disconnect / unit or...?

Any place between the unit terminals and the utility service point would fulfill 210.8(F) requirements.

The most common choices would typically be either at the breaker panel or in the disconnecting means near the unit.

Nothing wrong and likely what I would end up doing once we end up on 2020 code here is to put appropriate sized breaker in the panel and use a 50 amp Spa disconnect (with GFCI breaker) as the disconnect at the unit. You can usually buy those for less than you can buy a GFCI replacement breaker for them. You still get the GFCI protection and you still have proper overcurrent protection from the branch device. Also eliminates trying to find say a 35 amp GFCI breaker if that is what OCPD is called for by the unit.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Thanks kwired, so just to confirm and to support another similar response - the location of the "outlet" and therefore the location of the GFCI, should be where the power enters the condenser or "unit". Not inside the AC disconnect. Yes?

There is nothing that would require the GFCI protective device to be installed at the location of the outlet.

The rule requires that the outlet be GFCI protected. That can be accomplished by placing the GFCI at any location where a ground fault on the load side of the outlet will cause the GFCI to trip.

The most common location for this GFCI protective device would be the branch breaker in the panelboard. It could be a part of the outside disconnect device, or could even be the main breaker in the panelboard that feeds the branch breaker.

 

[infinity]

There is nothing that would require the GFCI protective device to be installed at the location of the outlet.

The rule requires that the outlet be GFCI protected. That can be accomplished by placing the GFCI at any location where a ground fault on the load side of the outlet will cause the GFCI to trip.

The most common location for this GFCI protective device would be the branch breaker in the panelboard. It could be a part of the outside disconnect device, or could even be the main breaker in the panelboard that feeds the branch breaker.

I agree, the requirement is that the unit is GFCI protected where that protection is installed is irrelevant.

 

[Bill Snyder]

There is nothing in the NEC that identifies hardwired utilization equipment as an outdoor outlet. Here in Colorado 210.8(E) and 210.8(F) will most likely be deleted a good example of the mis-interpretation would be EVSE equipment installed outdoors which requires no GFCI protection when hardwired per CMP-12.

 

[wwhitney]

There is nothing in the NEC that identifies hardwired utilization equipment as an outdoor outlet.

If the utilization equipment is outdoors, there's an outdoor outlet. See the definition of "outlet."

Cheers, Wayne

 

[don_resqcapt19]

There is nothing in the NEC that identifies hardwired utilization equipment as an outdoor outlet. Here in Colorado 210.8(E) and 210.8(F) will most likely be deleted a good example of the mis-interpretation would be EVSE equipment installed outdoors which requires no GFCI protection when hardwired per CMP-12.

Any electrical equipment that works and is not supplied by batteries is connected to an outlet. If it is not connected to an outlet, there is no possible way to supply power to the equipment.
If CMP 12 wanted to address this, they could put a rule in 625 that says that 210.8(F) does not apply to EVSE, as they can modify the rule in Article 210. They choose not to put such a rule in 625, so 210.8(F) applies to hard wired EVSE equipment installed at an outside location at a dwelling unit.

 

[infinity]

Any electrical equipment that works and is not supplied by batteries is connected to an outlet. If it is not connected to an outlet, there is no possible way to supply power to the equipment.
If CMP 12 wanted to address this, they could put a rule in 625 that says that 210.8(F) does not apply to EVSE, as they can modify the rule in Article 210. They choose not to put such a rule in 625, so 210.8(F) applies to hard wired EVSE equipment installed at an outside location at a dwelling unit.

I agree. Even with all of the ambiguity in some sections of the NEC the Article 100 definition of an outlet is very clear. Two wirenuts connecting the branch circuit wiring to the equipment is an outlet.

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

 

[kwired]

I agree. Even with all of the ambiguity in some sections of the NEC the Article 100 definition of an outlet is very clear. Two wirenuts connecting the branch circuit wiring to the equipment is an outlet.

Sometimes the exact location of that "point" is not all that clear, but if there is a load to be served by definition there is an outlet someplace.

A conductor loop to a switch location is not an outlet. The outlet for the load being switched is somewhere downstream from the switch but before the load.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I am thinking about the following as PIs for the 2026.

Outlet:
A point where the branch circuit conductors connect to, or will be connected to, a receptacle(s), fixture whip conductors, or utilization equipment

Lighting Outlet.
A point where the branch circuit conductors connect to, or will be connected to a lampholder, luminaire, or fixture whip conductors.

Receptacle Outlet.
A point where the branch circuit conductors are connected to a receptacle(s).