2017 NEC Pdf is available

[Dennis Alwon]

I ordered the 2017 NEC book with the pdf from Nfpa.org. I got an email that the pdf is available for download. I just downloaded it-- simple easy. Just thought you would all like to know

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Interesting thing they did--- the listed the code making panel number of the panel that was responsible for the definition. For example

Feeder. All circuit conductors between the service equipment,
the source of a separately derived system, or other power
supply source and the final branch-circuit overcurrent device.
(CMP-2)

 

[Dennis Alwon]

So they added an "N" next to the new paragraphs. I like this because in the past they didn't highlight it because it was not change so it would look like it was existing. I believe that is right--getting old

Here are some more new changes

2017-- the lights in a crawl space must be gfci protect and

(4) Garage Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of
branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least
one 120-volt, 20-ampere branch circuit shall be installed to
supply receptacle outlets in attached garages and in detached
garages with electric power. This circuit shall have no other
outlets.
Exception: This circuit shall be permitted to supply readily accessible
outdoor receptacle outlets.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I would like some comment on this one please


Here is an interesting one. I read this to mean if we have a desk area with receptacles at the desk top then the space below may need a receptacle if it falls into the standard distance rule req. for recep. on a wall. That's nuts. I can see if it were in a cabinet with a door---Maybe I am reading this incorrectly

(4) Countertop and Similar Work Surface Receptacle Outlets.
Receptacles installed for countertop and similar work surfaces
as specified in 210.52(C) shall not be considered as the receptacle
outlets required by 210.52(A).

 

[Smart $]

I would like some comment on this one please


Here is an interesting one. I read this to mean if we have a desk area with receptacles at the desk top then the space below may need a receptacle if it falls into the standard distance rule req. for recep. on a wall. That's nuts. I can see if it were in a cabinet with a door---Maybe I am reading this incorrectly

Consider "that do not have countertops or similar work surfaces" was added to 210.52(A)(2).

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Consider "that do not have countertops or similar work surfaces" was added to 210.52(A)(2).

I don't see that as changing anything. One says that a wall space that has a cabinet with a work space is considered wall space but the other seems to say that outlets install for the work space will not satisfy the requirement for the wall space outlets. That is what I was saying so I am missing your point.

 

[kwired]

I would like some comment on this one please


Here is an interesting one. I read this to mean if we have a desk area with receptacles at the desk top then the space below may need a receptacle if it falls into the standard distance rule req. for recep. on a wall. That's nuts. I can see if it were in a cabinet with a door---Maybe I am reading this incorrectly

I am currently taking a CEU class a couple nights a week. We covered that one last week, they had a Mike Holt graphic showing a countertop with a receptacle near the end of the countertop, then less then six feet of wall with no counter to a door. It was explaining that the less then six foot of wall couldn't use the countertop receptacle to meet the receptacle required on that wall even though it was withing six feet of the door.


.......................R
countertop________
........................................R2

_______________________________DOOR_______




Crude drawing using text above hope it made sense. If the door were less then 6 feet from receptacle "R" in previous codes this would satisify 210.52(A). Now they are saying you need "R2" to satisify 210.52(A).

had to edit my crude drawing as it wouldn let me use blank spaces to position the R and R2, so the periods in front of them are just there to position the receptacles along the floor/counter line.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I am currently taking a CEU class a couple nights a week. We covered that one last week, they had a Mike Holt graphic showing a countertop with a receptacle near the end of the countertop, then less then six feet of wall with no counter to a door. It was explaining that the less then six foot of wall couldn't use the countertop receptacle to meet the receptacle required on that wall even though it was withing six feet of the door.


.......................R
countertop________
........................................R2

_______________________________DOOR_______




Crude drawing using text above hope it made sense. If the door were less then 6 feet from receptacle "R" in previous codes this would satisify 210.52(A). Now they are saying you need "R2" to satisify 210.52(A).

had to edit my crude drawing as it wouldn let me use blank spaces to position the R and R2, so the periods in front of them are just there to position the receptacles along the floor/counter line.

So my interpretation is correct. That is an odd rule since I can install an outlet 5'6" with no counter and it is compliant...

 

[Sierrasparky]

I thought the NEC was not a design guide!

 

[kwired]

I thought the NEC was not a design guide!

Well it blew that one a long time ago when 210.52 was added. I can kind of see the need for some spacing requirements but where does one start and stop if you have them?

 

[kwired]

So my interpretation is correct. That is an odd rule since I can install an outlet 5'6" with no counter and it is compliant...

They don't want a 210.52 C outlet to also work as a 210.52 A outlet for some reason. Maybe was never the intention before but as was worded was legal.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Here is an incredibly beautiful image I drew of what I am referring to.

 

[kwired]

Here is an incredibly beautiful image I drew of what I am referring to.

That is what I thought you were describing. Don't know for certain if 210.52(A) requires an outlet there or not. I always put one there regardless. Section you referred to is 210.52(C), I think. If anything in 2017 "(C)" now says an outlet above that desk doesn't count as one that may be required below the desk.

 

[Smart $]

I don't see that as changing anything. One says that a wall space that has a cabinet with a work space is considered wall space but the other seems to say that outlets install for the work space will not satisfy the requirement for the wall space outlets. That is what I was saying so I am missing your point.

I agree there is a major flaw in the logic, but I'm currently looking at it like this:

• 210.52(A)(2)(1) says walls spaces that have countertops and work surfaces are excluded from being counted as wall space for the purpose of 6' spacing.
• All receptacles required by 210.52(C) are for countertops and work surfaces.
• No receptacles are required per 210.52(A) above or below countertops and work surfaces. 210.52(C) continues to require receptacles to serve the countertops and work surfaces.

In essence, 210.52(A)(4) is completely superfluous.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I agree there is a major flaw in the logic, but I'm currently looking at it like this:

• 210.52(A)(2)(1) says walls spaces that have countertops and work surfaces are excluded from being counted as wall space for the purpose of 6' spacing.
• All receptacles required by 210.52(C) are for countertops and work surfaces.
• No receptacles are required per 210.52(A) above or below countertops and work surfaces. 210.52(C) continues to require receptacles to serve the countertops and work surfaces.

In essence, 210.52(A)(4) is completely superfluous.

So I wonder if what they are saying is this.

Picture a kitchen counter that ends 3' from a door. The required receptacle on the counter would not satisfy the requirement for one in the 3' of wall space even if that outlet was within 6' of the door. I think this was stated differently in 2014

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Interesting to note that if I have a den with nothing but cabinets and bookcases then I wouldn't need a receptacle in the room. I have always install them in the kick spaces of the cabinets but they are not required.

The wording on this threw me but I think what I stated above is what this rewriting was about

 

[Smart $]

So I wonder if what they are saying is this.

Picture a kitchen counter that ends 3' from a door. The required receptacle on the counter would not satisfy the requirement for one in the 3' of wall space even if that outlet was within 6' of the door. I think this was stated differently in 2014

The main difference I see is that work surfaces are included with countertops, whereas they were not in prior editions.

In your example, you could not count the countertop receptacle as serving the 3' wall space even under 2014 NEC.

 

[Sierrasparky]

The main difference I see is that work surfaces are included with countertops, whereas they were not in prior editions.

In your example, you could not count the countertop receptacle as serving the 3' wall space even under 2014 NEC.

Ok Then what would it be!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The main difference I see is that work surfaces are included with countertops, whereas they were not in prior editions.

In your example, you could not count the countertop receptacle as serving the 3' wall space even under 2014 NEC.

I understand that you can't do it even under the 2014 but I was wondering if they were trying to clarify it...Did a great job of it if that was their intent.

 

[rbalex]

I thought the NEC was not a design guide!

It depends somewhat on the CMP. CMP14 was heavy into using Section 90.1(C). Those CMPs that are especially heavy into residential or light commercial are more likely to give design directives. A few unnamed aren't quite sure.