20 amp dual function tripping, 15 amp doesnt

[Steve16]

Having an issue today where a new 20a circuit with 8 outlets and 2 of the Topaz recess canless lights I just put in a new finished basement is tripping only when I turn on the lights with something else plugged in. Lights work fine alone or with my battery charger plugged in.

20 amp dual function GE breaker. Carpenter had a 10 amp air compressor running and as soon as I turn the light switch on, boom breaker trips. No issues with the compressor and a dehumidifier on together when lights are off. Go through your normal troubleshooting issues, long story short disconnect everything except my first outlet and run a temporary wire to see if I can isolate the problem. Ran 2 separate switch legs to the 2 lights (drop ceiling no damage to the wire, 1 has metal rx connector other has plastic push button connector) and try each individually with the compressor turned on and same thing. Swap it with another 20 amp DF that I bought at the same time and same thing happens only on this circuit. Swap it with a 15 amp DF breaker I bought today and everything works without issue.

Just wondering if anyone else has come across this. Am I wrong to think that I have 2 bad breakers? I'll be bringing new DF and a regular AFCI to swap out and try tomorrow.

 

[ActionDave]

Welcome to the forum.

I've seen AFCI breakers trip on electronic loads more than once. There is no reason not to blame the breaker since you have ruled out everything else. My SOP for troubleshooting anything that involves AFCI is to swap it with a straight GFCI breaker to rule out any wiring errors or problems with the load and then start calling the manufacturer to get the most recent model.

 

[retirede]

Welcome to the forum.

I've seen AFCI breakers trip on electronic loads more than once. There is no reason not to blame the breaker since you have ruled out everything else. My SOP for troubleshooting anything that involves AFCI is to swap it with a straight GFCI breaker to rule out any wiring errors or problems with the load and then start calling the manufacturer to get the most recent model.

Right - it sounds like perhaps the 15A has the latest algorithm and the 20s do not.

 

[kwired]

Welcome to the forum.

I've seen AFCI breakers trip on electronic loads more than once. There is no reason not to blame the breaker since you have ruled out everything else. My SOP for troubleshooting anything that involves AFCI is to swap it with a straight GFCI breaker to rule out any wiring errors or problems with the load and then start calling the manufacturer to get the most recent model.

Makes sense but who eats the cost of your time troubleshooting something that had nothing wrong in the first place?

Give you a hint, contractors, installers, or whatever you want to call them eat this cost 95+% of the time. They can get away with billing customer in cases where DIY installer can't figure it out, or when customer gave up on some other installer and called a different one to straighten things out.

 

[hbiss]

Right - it sounds like perhaps the 15A has the latest algorithm and the 20s do not.

Umm, more like the AFCI part of the 20A trips the breaker and the AFCI part of the 15A was disabled because it trips the breaker.

They want you to be happy and keep buying them...

-Hal

 

[LarryFine]

I would separate this kind of problem-solving as troubleshooting, outside the scope of the contract, and bill hourly plus parts.

 

[kwired]

I would separate this kind of problem-solving as troubleshooting, outside the scope of the contract, and bill hourly plus parts.

On a panel changeout maybe, on all new construction, it is mostly on you as the installer if things didn't work right, unless you have proven it is customer equipment that has the problem - usually going to be a plugged in item in those cases.

 

[Steve16]

Yea unfortunately I'm eating the cost on this one. Hard to tell a customer I purchased a bad breaker and they have to pay for my time. Plus it's for a contractor that gives me a ton of work and has helped me in my own home

 

[kwired]

Yea unfortunately I'm eating the cost on this one. Hard to tell a customer I purchased a bad breaker and they have to pay for my time. Plus it's for a contractor that gives me a ton of work and has helped me in my own home

You need to decide when to eat such costs with about anything you install. Just so happens these things aren't always that easy to narrow down the exact reason for tripping, and usually comes down to putting in some significant time before declaring it must be some sort of incompatibility issue between the breaker and whatever it is powering. Too much guarded information on these devices makes it more difficult even for those that may have chance of understanding them better than most.

When is it too much to continue eating lost time on these?

 

[James L]

When is it too much to continue eating lost time on these?

You can NEVER eat lost time. You have to be paid upfront. That's part of why you mark up materials, so that you can assume the liability for quality issues. That way you can spend the time without feeling beat.

If I'm doing service work, I markup my materials 100% above retail

Kind of hard to do that on new construction and remodel work, but 20% isn't out of line. That's about $12 on a dual function breaker. By the time you get to where you actually have to spend the time, you should have already been paid several hundred dollars in markup

 

[kwired]

You can NEVER eat lost time. You have to be paid upfront. That's part of why you mark up materials, so that you can assume the liability for quality issues. That way you can spend the time without feeling beat.

If I'm doing service work, I markup my materials 100% above retail

Kind of hard to do that on new construction and remodel work, but 20% isn't out of line. That's about $12 on a dual function breaker. By the time you get to where you actually have to spend the time, you should have already been paid several hundred dollars in markup

I understand, but many guys put a lot more time and headaches into figuring out AFCI troubles than many other common issues. Guess if anything one may need to have higher markup on AFCI's to help cover time lost on them. If your installation practices are questionable that don't help, but many of us already are taking more care and protecting cables and such since AFCI's have been around, there still is occasional hard to pinpoint issues.

 

[LarryFine]

" . . . and this charge is an AFCI retainer."

 

[retirede]

Umm, more like the AFCI part of the 20A trips the breaker and the AFCI part of the 15A was disabled because it trips the breaker.

They want you to be happy and keep buying them...

-Hal

Are you suggesting that the manufacturer is producing the 15A AFCI breaker that has no AFCI function?

 

[James L]

I understand, but many guys put a lot more time and headaches into figuring out AFCI troubles than many other common issues. Guess if anything one may need to have higher markup on AFCI's to help cover time lost on them. If your installation practices are questionable that don't help, but many of us already are taking more care and protecting cables and such since AFCI's have been around, there still is occasional hard to pinpoint issues.

For sure, if you run into a persistent issue then your markup needs to reflect that. But there's a lot of prepaid time already if your general markup is right.

Issues like this come up when people don't understand what their markup is supposed to be for, or if they're selling the materials at cost

 

[hbiss]

Are you suggesting that the manufacturer is producing the 15A AFCI breaker that has no AFCI function?

Who knows. How could you tell. The only way to test it is to push their test button.

-Hal

 

[kwired]

Who knows. How could you tell. The only way to test it is to push their test button.

-Hal

They keep pretty good secrets on what pressing the test button on an AFCI actually does. GFCI's do actually produce a fault current (to the perspective of the monitoring equipment) at a level that it is supposed to respond to. AFCI's have so many possible current signatures they are supposed to respond to what assurance do we have from one press of a test button that they will respond to those thousands of possible "bad signatures"

 

[retirede]

They keep pretty good secrets on what pressing the test button on an AFCI actually does. GFCI's do actually produce a fault current (to the perspective of the monitoring equipment) at a level that it is supposed to respond to. AFCI's have so many possible current signatures they are supposed to respond to what assurance do we have from one press of a test button that they will respond to those thousands of possible "bad signatures"

None. It’s likely that the test button simply initiates some test sequence to verify that the electronics are still intact. I don’t think there’s any way the test button simulates an arc signature.

 

[Steve16]

Went back today and played with the breaker a bit more. Light on the breaker was saying it was a ground fault.
Ended up changing the DF breaker to an AFCI, installed 2 gfci outlets near the sink area (small salon area) and called it a day. 2017 nec here

One of the 15a DF tripped over night as well with the lights on so that got changed to an afci as well. Seems like my lights and the compressor or dehumidifier in combo were causing it to trip the DF.

Lesson learned: I wont put the wafer/canless lights on a circuit with outlets again or use GE DF again

 

[kwired]

Went back today and played with the breaker a bit more. Light on the breaker was saying it was a ground fault.
Ended up changing the DF breaker to an AFCI, installed 2 gfci outlets near the sink area (small salon area) and called it a day. 2017 nec here

One of the 15a DF tripped over night as well with the lights on so that got changed to an afci as well. Seems like my lights and the compressor or dehumidifier in combo were causing it to trip the DF.

Lesson learned: I wont put the wafer/canless lights on a circuit with outlets again or use GE DF again

You mentioned it is a salon area, is this not a dwelling? If so AFCI not even required.

If it tripped on GFCI function you probably have an intermittent ground fault somewhere in the circuit, if it doesn't trip anything now probably a neutral to ground fault, which is something you really should fix anyway. Just so happens you would never known about it if no GFCI protection.

 

[Steve16]

You mentioned it is a salon area, is this not a dwelling? If so AFCI not even required.

If it tripped on GFCI function you probably have an intermittent ground fault somewhere in the circuit, if it doesn't trip anything now probably a neutral to ground fault, which is something you really should fix anyway. Just so happens you would never known about it if no GFCI protection.

Tested for ground fault as well