1965 panel

[smokin george]

Getting ready to market my house build in 1965. Electrical panel has no main disconnect. Is not split bus. No room in panel to add main breaker. Question is, if I add main disconnect in separate panel does my existing panel become a subpanel subject to subpanel requirements?

 

[ptonsparky]

Yes, if your electrician adds a main disconnect, it will become a sub. The panel, etc is old enough an entire new service may be more cost effective

 

[smokin george]

Thanks, you maybe right. The old Square D QO panel is full. I'll look into it.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Are you sure there isn't a main disconnect outside near the meter?

 

[Ponchik]

Yes, if your electrician adds a main disconnect, it will become a sub. The panel, etc is old enough an entire new service may be more cost effective

If the electrician adds the main outside of the existing panel, then it (the existing panel) becomes a sub assuming the neutral and the grounding becomes separated, otherwise it is still a service panel, am I not correct?


Probably a better value to get a new service installed that includes the main disconnect.

 

[smokin george]

Positive. Cable feeds out the back of the meter to the lugs of SQD panel. Town has 1000 population today with no building department. In 1965 was even smaller. First place I looked. Thanks for the idea. Considering replacing existing panel as suggested. Looking into feasibility and cost.

 

[smokin george]

If the electrician adds the main outside of the existing panel, then it (the existing panel) becomes a sub assuming the neutral and the grounding becomes separated, otherwise it is still a service panel, am I not correct?


Probably a better value to get a new service installed that includes the main disconnect.

The neutral and ground separation is the reason I asked the question. No place in the existing panel to add main breaker. I should have asked the question this way "If a main breaker can is added with no expansion slots, is the existing panel a subpanel?" With only the line cable coming in and the load cable going out, will the ground and neutral separation be required in the existing panel?

 

[Ponchik]

The neutral and ground separation is the reason I asked the question. No place in the existing panel to add main breaker. I should have asked the question this way "If a main breaker can is added with no expansion slots, is the existing panel a subpanel?" With only the line cable coming in and the load cable going out, will the ground and neutral separation be required in the existing panel?

I would say yes.

Locally we don't do this so I don't have much experience in this. I am sure someone will chime in.

 

[ggunn]

Would you have to separate ground from neutral in the panel and bond them in the disco if the disco had no OCPD?

 

[smokin george]

I would say yes.

Locally we don't do this so I don't have much experience in this. I am sure someone will chime in.

I think it isn't a subpanel but looking for confirmation. Maybe I should just focus on replacing the existing panel with an upgrade. Now it's a matter of curiosity. Thanks to all that have responded.

 

[Ponchik]

A sub needs the Neuteal and the Grounding separated.

Check your panel and see if your N & G can be easily separated. Sometimes there is a Green or other bolt that bonds the Neutral bar to the enclosure. Once the separation is done then you will be in compliance.

 

[smokin george]

A sub needs the Neuteal and the Grounding separated.

Check your panel and see if your N & G can be easily separated. Sometimes there is a Green or other bolt that bonds the Neutral bar to the enclosure. Once the separation is done then you will be in compliance.

Was hoping to avoid that. However, if it's gotta be done; it's gotta be done. Due to age of house I have a mixture of 2 wire no grd and 2 wire with grd so there will be fewer grd wires than neutrals to separate. Time and patience is all I need to get it done. Thanks for your response.
FYI, I've already added the gfci's to the 2 wire no grd receptacles. Changed out the brittle receptacles and 3 way and 4 way switches. Even replaced a few porcelain wire nuts.

 

[Ponchik]

Good idea to replace the service.

 

[ggunn]

I ask again in a different way: Does the main disco the OP needs to add have to contain OCP? Does the MLO MDP become a subpanel if there is no OCP in the disco ahead of it?

 

[eds]

what size service?

 

[growler]

Getting ready to market my house build in 1965. Electrical panel has no main disconnect. Is not split bus. No room in panel to add main breaker. Question is, if I add main disconnect in separate panel does my existing panel become a subpanel subject to subpanel requirements?

what size service?

Yes, what size service and how many circuits are in the panel.

I would probably just change out the panel but it may be possible to add a main breaker if there are not to many circuits in the panel if all that's need is a little 100 amp main. It may be possible to use tandem breakers to clear the two spaces needed for a main breaker.

 

[drcampbell]

The neutral and ground separation is the reason I asked the question. No place in the existing panel to add main breaker. I should have asked the question this way "If a main breaker can is added with no expansion slots, is the existing panel a subpanel?" With only the line cable coming in and the load cable going out, will the ground and neutral separation be required in the existing panel?

The essential requirement is no current flowing on the ground during normal operation. Neutral-ground separation achieves this.

You might be able to get a one-time variance from the local (county?) electrical inspector for a main disconnect/main overcurrent device in a separate box if you maintain neutral-ground separation everywhere except the main panel.

 

[smokin george]

The essential requirement is no current flowing on the ground during normal operation. Neutral-ground separation achieves this.

You might be able to get a one-time variance from the local (county?) electrical inspector for a main disconnect/main overcurrent device in a separate box if you maintain neutral-ground separation everywhere except the main panel.

There is no electrical inspector, town nor county. I'm anticipating a home inspection that would cite the lack of a main breaker as a deficiency. The average home buyer spirals into "chicken little syndrome" at the mention of electrical issues that are either real or imagined.

 

[smokin george]

Yes, what size service and how many circuits are in the panel.

I would probably just change out the panel but it may be possible to add a main breaker if there are not to many circuits in the panel if all that's need is a little 100 amp main. It may be possible to use tandem breakers to clear the two spaces needed for a main breaker.

The feeders coming into the panel from the meter appear to be #1( less than .5 inch diameter) That would make it 100 amp service, I believe. 20 single spaces in the panel (Sq D QO panel) 3 tandem breakers are currently in the panel. Went from built in oven and cooktop to free standing range. Got rid of circuit for the cooktop so now have spare. 1 dbl or 2 singles. See attached photo.

 

[smokin george]

Yes, what size service and how many circuits are in the panel.

I would probably just change out the panel but it may be possible to add a main breaker if there are not to many circuits in the panel if all that's need is a little 100 amp main. It may be possible to use tandem breakers to clear the two spaces needed for a main breaker.

OK, backfeed the main breaker. Took me long enough to catch on. Could be a workable idea. Thanks.