GE Low Voltage Switches knowledge needed!

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hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Its a simple on/off mechanical contact, if you need dimming, you would have to add a seperate dimmer, and intercept the load wire. Would be a real pain in the rear. Using wifi connected lamps or fixtures would be the easiest if they want dimming.
 

brantmacga

Señor Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Former Child
Its a simple on/off mechanical contact, if you need dimming, you would have to add a seperate dimmer, and intercept the load wire. Would be a real pain in the rear. Using wifi connected lamps or fixtures would be the easiest if they want dimming.

This probably isn’t code compliant, but I’ve seen videos online of people taking a Phillips Hue Button switch, soldering leads onto the contacts inside and connecting it to a momentary contact switch. Wire constant power to the fixture, click the button for on/off, press and hold for dimming. Pretty neat solution. The Hue button is tiny; fits in the wall or fixtures box and battery operated.


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Bob_Sacamano

Member
Location
Traverse City, MI
Occupation
electrician
This probably isn’t code compliant, but I’ve seen videos online of people taking a Phillips Hue Button switch, soldering leads onto the contacts inside and connecting it to a momentary contact switch. Wire constant power to the fixture, click the button for on/off, press and hold for dimming. Pretty neat solution. The Hue button is tiny; fits in the wall or fixtures box and battery operated.


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They could of just put a ZigBee or wifi trigger in the fixture casing and used the smarttings button or voice activation with Alexa or others for control without soldering. Or a Lutron Caseta if you want to get pricey about it.

I just don't want to pick out a bunch of LED fixtures for this lighting package and they're not compatible. I'll probably have to do time and material on the switches as some are dead and others aren't. I see the relays cost $40-$50, Switches $8-$15, and trim plates $8-12, and the supplier has limited distribution during Covid.
 

billybandit

Member
Location
Greensboro NC
Occupation
electrical contractor
Lucky to find this thread—I just inspected a 1964 built resi with GE panels and LV lighting switches throughout. The entire house is 2-wire. Various owners have randomly/sporadically replaced some/not all ungrounded receptacles with grounding type receptacles. The house has no AFCI and only 1 GFCI receptacle in a bath.

Assuming I replace all receptacles to comply and install AFCI and GFCI, should I anticipate conflict between AFCI and the LV lighting system? And any other thoughts you might have regarding this circumstance. Thanks
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
Lucky to find this thread—I just inspected a 1964 built resi with GE panels and LV lighting switches throughout. The entire house is 2-wire. Various owners have randomly/sporadically replaced some/not all ungrounded receptacles with grounding type receptacles. The house has no AFCI and only 1 GFCI receptacle in a bath.

Assuming I replace all receptacles to comply and install AFCI and GFCI, should I anticipate conflict between AFCI and the LV lighting system? And any other thoughts you might have regarding this circumstance. Thanks
No problem with AFCI or GFCI in general from the old RR7 system. Worked on one and hardest part was finding replacement parts for the LV side.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
210704-1559 EDT

I do not understand why so many electricians have no clue about logic, relays, and electrical circuits in general.

The GE RR system has some real advantages, but today the components are way over priced, and the toggle switches have been redesigned for looks instead of function.

Fundamentally the RR relay is a mechanically bistable unit with good AC current and voltage capability. Set and reset are controlled from two low voltage, 24 V or so, electrically isolated from the switched contact, and momentarily energized relay coils.

In many respects this type of switch has advantages over a solid-state switch. The RR really is a set of silver, or alloy, contacts. Thus, a low voltage drop on the power side switching contacts. Possibly not too many millivolts. I need to measure this sometime. There is no input power required to maintain either the on or off state. For most cases high voltage transients on the power lines do not damage the relay. Stranded #20 copper wire can be used over fairly long cable lengths for relay control.

All sorts of logical operations easily can be performed for relay control. You can have a single switch provide on-off control of one load, and still have that load controlled by another single switch that controls many separate circuits.

The RR relay can be located at a single load point. That means relays are scattered all over the place. Or many relays can be located in gang boxes. This is the approach I like. I have 7 gang boxes distributed around my home and garage, Dimming an be on either the input or output side of an RR relay is possible with a standard dimmer. There is virtually no leakage current thru the RR contacts when off.

By contrast solid state relays are not generally bistable. Quite likely have voltage drops around 1 V or more relatively independent of load. Quite limited by ambient temperature, as well as being major heat sources. Easily damaged by transient line voltages.

.
 

EJPHI

Member
I lived in a house that was built in 1958. It was wired with the first version of these latching relays. The units were black with a couple inch metal tube coming out one side with the low voltage wires. The tube fit through a lockout in the box where the relay was installed. Three LV wires as I recall. the switches closed one wire to the common to latch on and pulsed the other wire closed to the common to turn the light off. The black body of the unit contained a 24V transformer and the latching relay had 3 120V rated wires coming out of it . The white was neutral, black was the load and red was the line side as I recall. After about 8-10 years, these relays started failing and direct replacements were not available. The GE RR system was the only alternative, but the units lacked the transformer so as a 24V transformer was installed with each new replaced relay. The GE RR relays lasted a long time.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
210704-2337 EDT

EJPHI:

In the late 50s and early 60s there were several manufacturers in the low voltage coil relay business for residential applications.

The sales pitch was lower cost. I could never see that as really possible. The value I saw was in the switching logic capability.

When i built my home in 65 and 66 I went all GE RR relay switching, except for the garbage disposal.

I don't know what the first relay system was that you described. However, the GE system does not require multiple transformers. One transformer can be used for the whole home.

Internally the RR relay has two control coils, but with one common lead, and two other leads for set and reset. Control switches are SPDT with spring return to center and both switches open. This makes a system with wired "OR" logic possible.

.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Don't know the replacement cost or availability of those switches, but a single pole double throw momentary switch will work. You may have to use a mp1 or mp2 to mount it in.
relays typically not for continuously applied voltage so momentary contact from switches is needed. Momentary contact also allows for simpler installation of multiple switches to control one load.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
210704-2337 EDT

EJPHI:

In the late 50s and early 60s there were several manufacturers in the low voltage coil relay business for residential applications.

The sales pitch was lower cost. I could never see that as really possible. The value I saw was in the switching logic capability.

When i built my home in 65 and 66 I went all GE RR relay switching, except for the garbage disposal.

I don't know what the first relay system was that you described. However, the GE system does not require multiple transformers. One transformer can be used for the whole home.

Internally the RR relay has two control coils, but with one common lead, and two other leads for set and reset. Control switches are SPDT with spring return to center and both switches open. This makes a system with wired "OR" logic possible.

.
I think there were also some systems with an impulse type of relay where there was only two coil wires and every time you powered the coil the output contacts changed state.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
210705-1554 EDT

kwired:

You are correct that there was one company that made a stepping type relay. The very great disadvantage to this type was that the operation of the controlling switch gave no indication of the ON or OFF state of the relay.

Whereas the GE and SqD relays, even without using feedback, provided a good idea of their state by which way you operated the toggle switch. Up for any switch for ON, and down for OFF. The reliability of the GE relays was sufficiently good that you could use this as a means to know the state of the relay. But if you wanted better information there were GE RRs with an auxiliary contact to operate a pilot light to indicate relay state.

.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
210705-1554 EDT

kwired:

You are correct that there was one company that made a stepping type relay. The very great disadvantage to this type was that the operation of the controlling switch gave no indication of the ON or OFF state of the relay.

Whereas the GE and SqD relays, even without using feedback, provided a good idea of their state by which way you operated the toggle switch. Up for any switch for ON, and down for OFF. The reliability of the GE relays was sufficiently good that you could use this as a means to know the state of the relay. But if you wanted better information there were GE RRs with an auxiliary contact to operate a pilot light to indicate relay state.

.
Disadvantage at remote switching locations yes. Switching in same room as the light kind of doesn't matter.
 

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
Wired my house in 1973, more than 50 ea RR7 and hundreds of switches, might have over a thousand diodes in various logic circuits, 2 central control anything locations or combinations. Can set up any switch for any combination of lights on or off. I have a 24 Vdc bus fed by class II xfmr, but with a big capacitor so over 50 relays (about .4 A surge) can be operated simultaneously.

Huge advantage for control.

Big minus like Gar said is cost now. Back in '74, bulk RR7 relays were $1.25 IIRC, switches 25 cents. Now a relay is over $25, worse than inflation by a bit!

Have had 1 (one) relay fail in nearly 50 years. Biggest reliability problem has been the switch contacts which tend to oxidize over 50 years enough to block 24 Vdc - I have taken many over the years and dipped in ferric chloride for 10 seconds and then rinsed in water, good for another few decades till I die.
 

EJPHI

Member
Yes there was really no need for a transformer per replacement RR relay, but the electrician we hired had never seen this system before so he was being conservative. I was only eight and had way more passion for electricity than working knowledge at the time, otherwise I would have said something. these are all classical latching relays; pulse on and pulse off. You know the state because the light is on or off, not much ambiguity here.

All said and done, I don't really see the value proposition from the 60's perspective.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Yes there was really no need for a transformer per replacement RR relay, but the electrician we hired had never seen this system before so he was being conservative. I was only eight and had way more passion for electricity than working knowledge at the time, otherwise I would have said something. these are all classical latching relays; pulse on and pulse off. You know the state because the light is on or off, not much ambiguity here.

All said and done, I don't really see the value proposition from the 60's perspective.

When copper didn't cost an arm and a leg. If you want multiple switching locations it does use less copper than three and four way switch setups. Most the places I have run into these systems though weren't going to make a very big difference in how much copper was used. Cost of relays, power supply and enclosure to mount them in evens it up some as well. I think it mostly was just something different and they made people think this is a must have thing as it will be the trend in the future.
 
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