Torque or else !

[Besoeker3]

Small claims court. In NJ, you can go up to $5,000 IIRC.

But is it worth the time/hassle?
We don't know how much is owed.

 

[hbiss]

Just a passing thought or two. How much would it cost to torque the connections, placate the recalcitrant customer, and get paid? ... In short, is it worth the aggravation?

Removing, re-torquing and replacing every device plus the service panel and meter lugs in the typical house here could run into the thousands for which they have no intention of paying. For this you have no recourse in collecting it because it's an extra with no signed change order.

Just reply with a letter that everything has been installed per manufacturers instructions, if torquing was required it was done. Also state that the inspector requires connections to be torqued when required, has inspected all work and has signed off on it.

If that doesn't work, it's obvious that the customer is trying to screw you out of your final payment. A letter from your attorney is in order. Mention putting a lien on the property.

I have no idea where the customer is getting his ideas from, the internet is a terrible thing for the ignorant. Quite possibly they found it here. Maybe we should consider closing this forum to the public. Allow access only to members who sign up and are qualified. We don't need DIYs and homeowners looking here because they have no idea what they are reading.

-Hal

 

[Besoeker3]

I have no idea where the customer is getting his ideas from, the internet is a terrible thing for the ignorant.


-Hal

Quite so.
This, from the homeowner, interested me:

"Electrical Contractor shall torque all electrical connections, including lugs, circuit breakers, switches, and receptacles to manufacturers specifications using a calibrated torque screwdriver or calibrated torque wrench. Electrical Contractor will sign a letter that he has torqued the above connections and submit the letter to the homeowner. "

Not what you would expect from the average homeowner. And, if the installation has already passed inspection..........how could he know it wasn't already done in accordance with the rules...........

I feel sorry for the EC being put in this position.

 

[hbiss]

That spec looks to be copied and pasted off of someplace where this was discussed and somebody posted it. No way would a home owner come up with that nor would they think there is an issue with compliance unless they read some of the threads here or other places where we talk about the issue among ourselves.

-Hal

 

[gadfly56]

But is it worth the time/hassle?
We don't know how much is owed.

Yes, it is very dependent on the money in play. If it's $100, you might say "just keep it." If it's $1,000 then you might want to start with the letter, previously suggested, that all devices were installed per the manufacturer's instructions so please pony up the retainage. If they then insist that the EC come back and repeat that work, it's time to point out that they can't unilaterally modify the contract scope of work after completion and successful inspection. Then it's small claims court. Unless the amount is over $15,000 (I double checked NJ) don't involve a lawyer unless it's just a demand letter. Filing in small claims for NJ is $15.00.

 

[hillbilly1]

Bank of America requires it on their buildings, among other things such as double custody sign off sheets if you need to turn a breaker off. I have a special torque screwdriver just for them!

 

[growler]

That spec looks to be copied and pasted off of someplace where this was discussed and somebody posted it. No way would a home owner come up with that nor would they think there is an issue with compliance unless they read some of the threads here or other places where we talk about the issue among ourselves.

-Hal

The things that upsets me about this whole deal is not the fact the homeowner wants verification that torque specs are met. It's the fact that he waited until the job is finished and thinks he can demand a letter from the electrician by withholding payment.

Unless it's in the contract I don't see any reason to give the homeowner a letter stating anything.

When I was young I worked for a small time EC that went broke waiting for a payment on a big job and the only reason they held up the payment was because they knew they could get away with it. They did pay, right before it went to court about a year after job completion.

 

[hillbilly1]

Quite so.
This, from the homeowner, interested me:

"Electrical Contractor shall torque all electrical connections, including lugs, circuit breakers, switches, and receptacles to manufacturers specifications using a calibrated torque screwdriver or calibrated torque wrench. Electrical Contractor will sign a letter that he has torqued the above connections and submit the letter to the homeowner. "

Not what you would expect from the average homeowner. And, if the installation has already passed inspection..........how could he know it wasn't already done in accordance with the rules...........

I feel sorry for the EC being put in this position.

They probably seen it on a YouTube how to video! LOL!

 

[LarryFine]

If they then insist that the EC come back and repeat that work, it's time to point out that they can't unilaterally modify the contract scope of work after completion and successful inspection.

That was my point.

 

[LarryFine]

It's the fact that he waited until the job is finished and thinks he can demand a letter from the electrician by withholding payment.

Unless it's in the contract I don't see any reason to give the homeowner a letter stating anything.

Again . . .

 

[hbiss]

I agree. the customer is pulling something.

-Hal

 

[gadfly56]

I agree. the customer is pulling something.

-Hal

Yeah, a fast one.

 

[kwired]

Removing, re-torquing and replacing every device plus the service panel and meter lugs in the typical house here could run into the thousands for which they have no intention of paying. For this you have no recourse in collecting it because it's an extra with no signed change order.

Just reply with a letter that everything has been installed per manufacturers instructions, if torquing was required it was done. Also state that the inspector requires connections to be torqued when required, has inspected all work and has signed off on it.

If that doesn't work, it's obvious that the customer is trying to screw you out of your final payment. A letter from your attorney is in order. Mention putting a lien on the property.

I have no idea where the customer is getting his ideas from, the internet is a terrible thing for the ignorant. Quite possibly they found it here. Maybe we should consider closing this forum to the public. Allow access only to members who sign up and are qualified. We don't need DIYs and homeowners looking here because they have no idea what they are reading.

-Hal

Problem is if you close it to the public many potential legitimate users maybe will never check it out and never join.

 

[roger]

After final sign off by inspector, I received this demand from the homeowner:
Prior to final payment,
Electrical Contractor shall torque all electrical connections, including lugs, circuit breakers, switches, and receptacles to manufacturers specifications using a calibrated torque screwdriver or calibrated torque wrench. Electrical Contractor will sign a letter that he has torqued the above connections and submit the letter to the homeowner.
What would you do?

As Hal mentions, even during any deliberations be sure to start lien procedures before any time limitations, this might simply be writing a letter.

Roger

 

[growler]

Yesterday I thought the homeowner was trying to pull a fast one but today I'm not so sure.

Last night I was looking for cheap ideas for a calibrated torque screw driver. These things get lost, stolen and abused on the job so looking for a cheap alternative.
Found a video for the Husky torque screw driver. Comes with a certificated if calibration.

During the video the guy giving the demonstration brings up 2017 NEC code Article 110-14 (D).
"Where a tightening torque is indicated as a numeric value on the equipment or in the installation instructions provided by the manufacturer , a calibrated torque tool shall be used to achieve the indicated torque value, unless the manufacturer has provided installation instructions for an alternative method of achieving the required torque. "

He also mentioned that an inspector or homeowner may wish to get a letter from an EC stating that all connections had been properly torqued.

First I had ever herd of this idea (letter to certify compliance) but the homeowner may not have come up with the idea himself and he may think ( if he watched this or a similar video) that this is actually necessary.

 

[Besoeker3]

Unless it's in the contract I don't see any reason to give the homeowner a letter stating anything

Quite. But the "do nothing" option won't get the bill paid.

 

[sameguy]

You/ they could call the home owner to try and find out what is going on; odd that a letter was sent and no verbal action was taken first, job meeting, like I said before what is the spec. on the device for torque plus the +-4% of the tool and you could have a huge meaningless number.

 

[hbiss]

Problem is if you close it to the public many potential legitimate users maybe will never check it out and never join.

If anyone in this industry doesn't know who Mike is or what this forum is about they don't belong here. It costs nothing to sign up if they want to see for themselves.

-Hal

 

[Besoeker3]

Problem is if you close it to the public many potential legitimate users maybe will never check it out and never join.

I agree.
I suppose the question is on what basis would you exclude membership?

 

[junkhound]

What, the HO did not want the inspector to witness every connection and put a spot of sealant and her stamp on every one also?