Blown robot drives due to power issues

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I have a 480v system that is wired Delta - Wye. The main supply voltage from the power company is 4160. I blew up 6 drives used for robots. I found that i had heaters that were showing a short to ground but they had now blown a fuse or tripped any breaker. After we corrected the issue of the bad heaters we still fear we have a major problem due to the fact we never blew a fuse or tripped a breaker. We now show that 300v, 260v, 260v on all three legs. This system has been in this factory for over 20 years and we have never had any problems like this. I have been told by older employees that there is a floating ground. I will admit that I by far a expert in elertrical, i know enough that i stay away from the big stuff!! Any solutions or things to check would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!
 
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NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
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EC - retired
I have a 480v system that is wired Delta - Wye. The main supply voltage from the power company is 4160. I blew up 6 drives used for robots. I found that i had heaters that were showing a short to ground but they had now blown a fuse or tripped any breaker. After we corrected the issue of the bad heaters we still fear we have a major problem due to the fact we never blew a fuse or tripped a breaker. We now show that 300v, 260v, 260v on all three legs. This system has been in this factory for over 20 years and we have never had any problems like this. I have been told by older employees that there is a floating ground. I will admit that I by far a expert in elertrical, i know enough that i stay away from the big stuff!! Any solutions or things to check would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!

Believe your older employees and get an electrician on the job. Not something you should do or look for.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I will admit that I by far a expert in elertrical
You should find an expert to help you.

I will say this, there is no such a thing as a delta-wye system.

If it is a delta system, the voltages you are seeing line to ground are probably OK.

If it is a delta system, it is entirely possible that the reason the drives blew is because by default they are configured for wye systems, or in some cases can only be put on wye systems, and if run on delta systems they do indeed blow up, sometimes literally.

Check the manuals carefully to see what input power is required.

Sometimes they can run fine for years on delta systems but then a little blip can create havoc if they are not configured correctly, or are not supposed to be run on delta systems at all.

If you have a delta system, you won't get a trip on an overcurrent device such as a fuse or circuit breaker if only one line is faulted to ground. That is why some places use delta power, because they don't want a ground fault on a single line to trip power for the whole plant. If you have delta power, the code requires you to have ground detection somewhere so you can tell if you have a ground fault since the overcurrent device won't trip to tell you.
 

__dan

Banned
Possibly, main transformer is delta to Y but there is nothing connected to the main transformer neutral bushing, creating a floating ungrounded system (legal with ground fault detection and signage). Loads are delta or single phase line to line 480. No neutral connected load (there is no system neutral).

First ground fault references the system to ground creating effectively the corner grounded delta, but continues to run with ground fault detection giving alarm. Second ground fault is line to line through both faults in series.

Typical drive is Y connected and grounded at the filter network. On a floating ground this is the first ground fault. Second ground fault is in series with the grounded connection at the drive and may pass fault current through that path. This scenario, the drive may go poof, and the existential hazard will still be there after the the drives and the fault at the heater have been fixed. Drives would go poof again at the next unrelated line to ground fault.

Drives would have to be rated for operation on floating ground system and according to the manufacturer's instruction in that application.

As stated above, an expert is necessary.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Possibly, main transformer is delta to Y but there is nothing connected to the main transformer neutral bushing, creating a floating ungrounded system (legal with ground fault detection and signage). Loads are delta or single phase line to line 480. No neutral connected load (there is no system neutral)....
Did I miss a post and/or picture somewhere? Is that a statement of fact or sheer speculation?

:?
 

__dan

Banned
Did I miss a post and/or picture somewhere? Is that a statement of fact or sheer speculation?

:?

OP said he was advised there may be a floating ground (ungrounded system) on a system that is delta to Y. Main transformer at delta to Y is the common arrangement. It is one of the expected variations.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
hummel6817,
As you can see from the responses, there is really nothing we can do for you beside guessing at things. You really need a licensed electrician qualified in industrial distribution systems to take a look at this for you.

One issue raised is the possibility that although you may have a transformer that is LABELED as Delta-Wye, it may not be used in that way. In an old-school thought process, it was somewhat common in industrial plants to use a 480V ungrounded Delta distribution system. The thinking was that in that type of system the plant will continue operating with the first ground fault, because you simply go from an ungrounded Delta system to, effectively, a "corner grounded Delta" system and the plant keeps running as if nothing hapoened, other than at that initial fault point. So no fuses blow, no breakers trip, the production doesn't stop. It was kind of like a "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" approach to power distribution.

The thing is, this kind of system was popular when industrial power electronics, such as VFDs, Servo drives etc. were very uncommon. These types of devices are, for the most part, designed to be used on solidly grounded Wye distribution systems where the voltage reference from line to ground is 58% of what it is line to line. In an ungrounded Delta, or "fliating" ground system, the line to ground voltage reference is potentially the same as the line to line potential under the right circumstances. Not only are the line side components of things like drives often selected for the lower (58%) voltage reference, they will also have line protection components (MOVs for example) on them that are themselves referenced to ground as well. So if connected to an ungrounded Delta system, those line protective devices become the Wye grounding point of your entire facility, for a few milliseconds until they vaporize. Then they are no longer there to protect the rest of the device. As was said, you may go on for years never knowing that there is an issue, but then one day there is, and the damage is catastrophic (from the device standpoint). So bottom line, modern industrial plants no longer use ungrounded Delta distribution systems unless a lot of special care is taken on how anything with electronic power supplies is connected (usually by using smaller Delta-Wye isolation transformers to create a local grounded Wye system just for those devices).

But again, this is pure speculation, because we are not there to look at what you have and take measurements. Hence the necessity of getting a local qualified professional involved.
 
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