Water heater timer wiring

[streetneons]

I did a home inspection on a house built in 2006 in Florida with a water heater timer, every install that I have seen in this area for a water heater timer has the wiring in conduit from the timer box to the water heater. Should the wiring be in conduit?

And while I am asking a question and learning, is there any distance requirement for an electrical switch or outlet near a kitchen sink, I had a disposal switch plate mounted on the backsplash right behind the sink and usually I seem them a bit off to the side?

And I think I found my answer but will ask the experts anyways, outlets and switches in a bathroom near a tub or shower, what is the actual requirement for the placement, I know it can't be in the shower/tub basin area, but should it be like 3 feet away from the basin, or is right on the drywall next to the shower within reach when in the shower okay?

Sorry if this seems like basic stuff, I am still learning and just looking for more information on the matter. Thank you in advance for any input

 

[petersonra]

You can't run cord in NEC applications that does not have a plug/cord connection. does not matter if it is a water heater or something else.

I am not a fan of the restrictions on the use of cord but 400.7 lists the only places you are allowed to use it and this application does not appear there.

However, this looks flat, like NM cable. Maybe just the picture. I have never seen NM with an orange jacket though.

This might arguably be a more or less legal NM installation.

 

[mbrooke]

I wouldn't worry about it. It would be better in FMC or at least stapled to wall but I know of thousands upon thousands of installs where NM comes out of the wall or j box and straight into the water heater.


Did you check though the timer motor is 240 volts rather than 120? If the incoming cable has no neutral the timer motor by code must be 240.

 

[mbrooke]

You can't run cord in NEC applications that does not have a plug/cord connection. does not matter if it is a water heater or something else.

I am not a fan of the restrictions on the use of cord but 400.7 lists the only places you are allowed to use it and this application does not appear there.

That looks like 10-2 NM-B to me. But I agree if it was SOJ or the like it would be against code.

 

[petersonra]

That looks like 10-2 NM-B to me. But I agree if it was SOJ or the like it would be against code.

I just edited my post to say that. Beat me to the punch.

 

[RLyons]

So would that be considered a means of disconnect?
So you would have to pull the time pins?

 

[mbrooke]

I just edited my post to say that. Beat me to the punch.

Its ok, don't sweat I do it all the time.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Sorry!

(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification
or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

 

[mbrooke]

Sorry!

(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification
or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

He is a home inspector and part of the trade, not DIY. While HI courses sometimes do a poor job teaching what are electrical defects, that's where we come in. It is our job to help out the OP or anyone who has a question regardless of skill level.

 

[jxofaltrds]

He is a home inspector and part of the trade, not DIY. While HI courses sometimes do a poor job teaching what are electrical defects, that's where we come in. It is our job to help out the OP or anyone who has a question regardless of skill level.

Ask any HI and they proudly say that they do not cite code. There is nothing unsafe about that installation. There may or may not be a code violation present.

You can not play both sides. Are you a Generalist? Or are you an Expert.

Home buyers trust these individuals. He has crossed the line from being a Generalist.

HIs have their own forums where they ask each other questions.

May I suggest that he buys one of Mike's beginner books and read it first.

I'm sorry this is not the place for HI questions. Or start a HI topic section.

 

[growler]

I did a home inspection on a house built in 2006 in Florida with a water heater timer, every install that I have seen in this area for a water heater timer has the wiring in conduit from the timer box to the water heaters. Should the wiring be in conduit?

The question is simple. Wiring not required to be in conduit by the NEC.

I normally use flex conduit and stranded wire but that just because these materials are already on the van and I think it looks better. When useing flex conduit I can use a sheetrock anchor and strap.

A home inspection is not a code inspection and the use of Romex is not going to cause a problem. It's done all the time.

If you were going to write it up you could state that the NM is not strapped.

 

[kwired]

I have never seen NM with an orange jacket though.

You must not run much NM cable. For around 10 years now you likely have not been able to purchase any 10 AWG NM cable that did not have an orange jacket, 12 AWG with a yellow jacket, 14 AWG with a white jacket, and anything larger than 10AWG with a black jacket. I don't think it is any kind of official standard, but is more of a voluntary standard and just about all manufacturers are following it.

 

[jxofaltrds]

The question is simple. Wiring not required to be in conduit by the NEC.

I normally use flex conduit and stranded wire but that just because these materials are already on the van and I think it looks better. When useing flex conduit I can use a sheetrock anchor and strap.

A home inspection is not a code inspection and the use of Romex is not going to cause a problem. It's done all the time.

If you were going to write it up you could state that the NM is not strapped.

Code violation not a safety hazard.

My point is you walk a slippery slope when you start calling out code violations. The consumer assumes that you are verifying a safe electrical installation.

 

[kwired]

I did a home inspection on a house built in 2006 in Florida with a water heater timer, every install that I have seen in this area for a water heater timer has the wiring in conduit from the timer box to the water heater. Should the wiring be in conduit?

And while I am asking a question and learning, is there any distance requirement for an electrical switch or outlet near a kitchen sink, I had a disposal switch plate mounted on the backsplash right behind the sink and usually I seem them a bit off to the side?

And I think I found my answer but will ask the experts anyways, outlets and switches in a bathroom near a tub or shower, what is the actual requirement for the placement, I know it can't be in the shower/tub basin area, but should it be like 3 feet away from the basin, or is right on the drywall next to the shower within reach when in the shower okay?

Sorry if this seems like basic stuff, I am still learning and just looking for more information on the matter. Thank you in advance for any input View attachment 9781

Main considerations is securing and supporting, and protection from physical damage. Some AHJ's are strict about those aspects - some know the rules but are a little lenient, others maybe don't really know. How subjected it is to physical damage is pretty much a judgement call and is not otherwise well defined. Securing and supporting is spelled out pretty clearly in the NEC. In fact your supply in the flexible metal conduit really needs the first support within the first foot from the fitting, looks like it is more than that in the photo. Many inspectors would let that go but if you want to strictly enforce what NEC says it is wrong.

As far as securing and support of NM cable:

334.30 Securing and Supporting.
Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be supported and secured by staples, cable ties, straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so as not to damage the cable, at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m (4? ft) and within 300 mm (12 in.) of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting. Flat cables shall not be stapled on edge.
Sections of cable protected from physical damage by raceway shall not be required to be secured within the raceway.
(A) Horizontal Runs Through Holes and Notches. In other than vertical runs, cables installed in accordance with 300.4 shall be considered to be supported and secured where such support does not exceed 1.4-m (4?-ft) intervals and the nonmetallic-sheathed cable is securely fastened in place by an approved means within 300 mm (12 in.) of each box, cabinet, conduit body, or other nonmetallic-sheathed cable termination.
Informational Note: See 314.17(C) for support where nonmetallic boxes are used.
(B) Unsupported Cables. Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be permitted to be unsupported where the cable:
(1) Is fished between access points through concealed spaces in finished buildings or structures and supporting is impracticable.
(2) Is not more than 1.4 m (4? ft) from the last point of cable support to the point of connection to a luminaire or other piece of electrical equipment and the cable and point of connection are within an accessible ceiling.

I left out sub part (C) as it doesn't apply to OP.

I don't see anything in there that allows the NM cable in the OP installation without some additional securing/supporting, though I also have little issue with it myself as long as it is not subject to physical damage. But I would install flexible conduit in most instances, and have used MC cable as well - though it probably is not properly supported either. FMC needs to be supported 12 inches from each end as well. The longer distances allowed are for when flexibility is required, what is going to move that requires flexibility in the water heater installation in the OP? So that said additional support is needed even with FMC though most AHJ's would let it go with 3-4 feet of unsupported flex.

 

[roger]

I'm sorry this is not the place for HI questions. Or start a HI topic section.

That call will be made by others.

The OP is welcome to ask his questions here and if you have a problem with it please report the thread and it will be taken into consideration.

To the OP, Welcome to the forums.

Roger

 

[kwired]

So would that be considered a means of disconnect?
So you would have to pull the time pins?

A disconnecting means is required, the time clock is not an acceptable disconnecting means. That said we can not tell from the photo if the disconnecting means requirements are met, if the branch circuit breaker is within site there is no problem. I think you can have a permanent locking means on the branch circuit device for a water heater so that would work as well. I almost always use a cheap pull out disconnect as it gives a transition place to turn the wiring method to flexible conduit and doesn't cost much more than adding a breaker lock device anyway.

 

[petersonra]

I'm sorry this is not the place for HI questions. Or start a HI topic section.

The rules do not seem to ban such questions. Or to ban participation by home inspectors.

I can understand that you might feel some frustration in dealing with the aftermath of a typical HI where they have cited all kinds of things but really just do not understand what it is they are citing. The plumbers, HVAC guys, and carpenters are probably just as frustrated by it.

 

[jxofaltrds]

It was the multiple questions that got me. Please read the OP again and you may see why I feel the way I do.

Obviously we want to help everyone be safe. I just think that you shouldn't be inspecting electrical installations unless you have some basic knowledge.

No OJT for this.

 

[mbrooke]

Ask any HI and they proudly say that they do not cite code. There is nothing unsafe about that installation. There may or may not be a code violation present.

You can not play both sides. Are you a Generalist? Or are you an Expert.

Home buyers trust these individuals. He has crossed the line from being a Generalist.

HIs have their own forums where they ask each other questions.

May I suggest that he buys one of Mike's beginner books and read it first.

I'm sorry this is not the place for HI questions. Or start a HI topic section.

:roll:

And that just keeps home inspectors ignorant on proper electrical inspections. They may have there own forums but a lot of them are lacking professional electricians and code experts. I see a lot of defects get missed as a result and a lot of wrong conclusions.


As far as Im concerned HI are allowed by the rules to post here and should be able too. Keeping them away does nothing to help anyone, all it does is open the door of electrical dangers getting missed. And it opens up HI to lawsuits.


This forum is gold and the best place to learn electrical code regardless of being a contractor, electrical inspector, lineman, master electrician, home inspector, testing specialist, ect ect.

 

[roger]

It was the multiple questions that got me. Please read the OP again and you may see why I feel the way I do.

OK, I read it again and I don't see it.

Obviously we want to help everyone be safe. I just think that you shouldn't be inspecting electrical installations unless you have some basic knowledge.

Obviously the OP has some basic knowledge or he wouldn't be asking for clarrification.

The OP is observing and asking us a few questions. It's quite probable that he is trying to prepare a reasonably accurate report so that he can recommend or not recommend follow up by an EC.

Roger