Cutler-Hammer residential breakers in a Westinghouse panel

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JDBrown

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
I've got an RFI that I'm scratching my head over, and I hope some of you who deal with this stuff in the field can help me out. Our drawings include the following standard note whenever a new circuit breaker is being added to an existing panel: "Contractor to furnish and install new circuit breaker(s) as noted matching existing in manufacturer, style, type and AIC rating." As far as I know, this is a fairly typical note in the industry. We do it this way because the Electrical Contractor is the one taking the cover off of the panel, and he can see exactly what the existing breakers are, whereas I often have to work from pictures somebody else took at the job site (and they're usually blurry/out of focus).

I now have an RFI from the EC asking if he needs to find refurbished Westinghouse circuit breakers (since all the existing breakers are Westinghouse), or if he can use new Cutler-Hammer breakers. This is a residential panel in a house built in 1993. Now, I know Westinghouse was bought out by Eaton (parent company of Cutler-Hammer) not long after this house was built, and I also know that the Contractor knows this. I'm also pretty sure he already knows if new Cutler-Hammer breakers will work in this panel or not, and knowing that makes me a little hesitant to just dash off a response, because I have to ask myself why the EC is even bothering to ask this question. I'm a little concerned that he's fishing for a Change Order, which has been known to happen, but he could just be trying to prevent trouble with the Inspector (around here they're notorious for nailing Contractors on every little deviation from the signed plans).

I want to tell the EC to just use new Cutler-Hammer breakers, because I'm not a fan of refurbished breakers -- they seem to take forever to get on site, cost a bundle and have a shorter lifespan than new breakers. So... Is there any problem with using new Cutler-Hammer residential breakers in a Westinghouse panel? If this is okay, are the Cutler-Hammer breakers special/different in any way -- in other words, if I tell the EC to use new Cutler-Hammer breakers, is the project going to be delayed while he waits for them to be delivered, or will he be able to use the same breakers that are sitting on the shelf at the big box stores?

Thanks. Man, I've got to stop being so long winded...
 
mjf

mjf

Senior Member
Location
The incredible, yet very expensive, Hudson Valley,
Sounds like the EC just wants to get the job done and pass inspection.

Maybe, in the future, change the "standard" note to include breakers listed for use in the enclosure.

In this instance, maybe you can get a footnote added to your existing drawings approved without a whole new AHJ review.
 
James S.

James S.

Senior Member
Location
Mesa, Arizona
mjf said:
Sounds like the EC just wants to get the job done and pass inspection.

Maybe, in the future, change the "standard" note to include breakers listed for use in the enclosure.

In this instance, maybe you can get a footnote added to your existing drawings approved without a whole new AHJ review.
Click to expand...

Yeah, with the wording you have now you are potentially putting your EC in a no win situation. I would have made the same call to you just to cover my a..
 
growler

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
JDBrown said:
"Contractor to furnish and install new circuit breaker(s) as noted matching existing in manufacturer, style, type and AIC rating." As far as I know, this is a fairly typical note in the industry.

I now have an RFI from the EC asking if he needs to find refurbished Westinghouse circuit breakers (since all the existing breakers are Westinghouse), or if he can use new Cutler-Hammer breakers.
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't the EC need clarification?

He is just covering himself. You add the notes to cover yourself.

If the notes are not to be taken seriously they should not be included.
 
C

curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
To the OP. When you say residential breakers are you refering to standard "C" Frame 15-100 amp plug in breakers? If so there is no such thing as a rebuilt breaker. You can by used breakdes that are cleaned up and trip tested but they never take them apart since there are no replaceable parts inside. The used breaker shops have thousands of these small breakers on the shelves. If a breakers is in bad condition or fails the trip test it gets sent to the scrap yard or trash.
 
mjf

mjf

Senior Member
Location
The incredible, yet very expensive, Hudson Valley,
curt swartz said:
To the OP. When you say residential breakers are you refering to standard "C" Frame 15-100 amp plug in breakers? If so there is no such thing as a rebuilt breaker. You can by used breakdes that are cleaned up and trip tested but they never take them apart since there are no replaceable parts inside. The used breaker shops have thousands of these small breakers on the shelves. If a breakers is in bad condition or fails the trip test it gets sent to the scrap yard or trash.
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I believe the above statement to be true. Another member on this site (who rebuilds breakers for a living) told me they don't touch anything under a DP 400amp, as the cost involved to rebuild isn't worth it.
 
J

JDBrown

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
JDBrown said:
I'm a little concerned that he's fishing for a Change Order, which has been known to happen, but he could just be trying to prevent trouble with the Inspector (around here they're notorious for nailing Contractors on every little deviation from the signed plans).
Click to expand...

Dang it, I knew I wasn't going to say that right. "Fishing for a Change Order" was really poor phrasing on my part. I don't see the EC asking for more money as a result of this; I'm more concerned with the schedule. I just want to make sure we don't get hit with any surprises. The more I think about it, the more I believe he's worried about the Inspector citing him for C-H breakers in a Westinghouse panel.

To the OP. When you say residential breakers are you refering to standard "C" Frame 15-100 amp plug in breakers? If so there is no such thing as a rebuilt breaker.
Click to expand...
That's good to know, thanks. I'll look at my pictures this evening to see if I can tell.
 
Little Bill

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
JDBrown said:
Dang it, I knew I wasn't going to say that right. "Fishing for a Change Order" was really poor phrasing on my part. I don't see the EC asking for more money as a result of this; I'm more concerned with the schedule. I just want to make sure we don't get hit with any surprises. The more I think about it, the more I believe he's worried about the Inspector citing him for C-H breakers in a Westinghouse panel.


That's good to know, thanks. I'll look at my pictures this evening to see if I can tell.
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The C-H "CL" breakers come with a paper that lists all the breakers that they can legally replace. Or better stated, all the panels they can be installed in.
You leave the paper in the panel for the inspector.

Most S/H carry them and you shouldn't have to wait on them.

Side note: The "CL" breakers do not come in all sizes. I'm pretty sure the 15, 20, and 30A are carried, but not sure of the largest size. I am sure that not all sizes are available.

Edit to add: just found my info on this, and the breakers come in up to 50A.
 
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J

JDBrown

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
JDBrown said:
I'll look at my pictures this evening to see if I can tell.
Click to expand...
I was only able to find one legible photo of the existing Westinghouse breakers. They appear to be types BR and BQ. Knowing that, can anyone confirm that Eaton/Cutler-Hammer types BR and BQ are suitable for the same panel?

tn_DSCN3838.jpg
 
Little Bill

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
Little Bill said:
The C-H "CL" breakers come with a paper that lists all the breakers that they can legally replace. Or better stated, all the panels they can be installed in.
You leave the paper in the panel for the inspector.

Most S/H carry them and you shouldn't have to wait on them.

Side note: The "CL" breakers do not come in all sizes. I'm pretty sure the 15, 20, and 30A are carried, but not sure of the largest size. I am sure that not all sizes are available.

Edit to add: just found my info on this, and the breakers come in up to 50A.
Click to expand...

iwire said:
Wow. :D


I suspect that the EC just wants to know that if he uses the appropriate CH breaker you will not make him replace it with a refurbished Westinghouse at his expense. I don't see it as them looking for an extra.

Here is a CH guide that lists the proper CH replacements for Westinghouse breakers http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/vol12_tab03.pdf
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jumper said:
See page 96 of iwire's link for BR, I think BQ is a Siemens breaker.
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Oops! Didn't see Iwire's link when I posted!
 
C

cdslotz

Senior Member
You say this is a residence. How big is the existing panel?
That's a 20 year old panel. Not really that old, but on an extensive remodel,
why didn't you require it to be replaced with all new?
 
growler

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
cdslotz said:
You say this is a residence. How big is the existing panel?
That's a 20 year old panel. Not really that old, but on an extensive remodel,
why didn't you require it to be replaced with all new?
Click to expand...


Another thing to think about if this is residential and an extensive remodel there are going to be a lot of "Arc Fault" breakers needed. A westinghhouse arc fault would be hard to find.
 
J

JDBrown

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
cdslotz said:
You say this is a residence. How big is the existing panel?
That's a 20 year old panel. Not really that old, but on an extensive remodel,
why didn't you require it to be replaced with all new?
Click to expand...

growler said:
Another thing to think about if this is residential and an extensive remodel there are going to be a lot of "Arc Fault" breakers needed. A westinghhouse arc fault would be hard to find.
Click to expand...

I don't know as I'd call it an "extensive" remodel - at least, not electrically. For the bedrooms, hallways, living room, etc., there's no electrical work being done -- it's all just new floors, new paint job, etc. Some light fixtures may be replaced, but if they are I know nothing about it. Even if they are, though, our AHJ has been allowing circuits to be "grandfathered" in as far as AFCIs are concerned, as long as there's no actual change to the circuit wiring -- just replacing an existing fixture in the same location. The main electrical additions are a wall oven (previously was NG only), a garage door receptacle and a MWBC to feed a detached "shop". I put the word shop in quotation marks because it's a little 10'x12' shed with a fluorescent strip light and a few receptacles for small power tools.

I've done the load calcs and we're still more than fine with a 100 amp service. As for why I didn't insist on a new panel, the answer always comes back to money. The HO doesn't want to pay for a new panel when the one he has will likely work fine for many more years.

Thanks to everyone for the help. I've responded to the RFI, amending the note about matching breakers to what's existing in the panel, to allow other breakers listed as replacements/suitable for use in that panel. Hopefully, that change will keep the Inspector happy.
 
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