NEC 334.30(B)(2) required securing?

[Pete S]

Hello,

I believe this is my first time posting here.

I have lurked about and found topics and answers that were very helpful/interesting.

I have come across an "issue" with the section NEC 334.30(B)(2).

An electrical contractor istalled can lights that are in a basement ceiling. Apparently there was a "miscommunication/assumption" about the ceiling finish.

I was told, or believe it was said the ceiling was going to be drywalled. BUT apparently although the can lights were nailed in place, there is a tiled ceiling that is being installed. With this tiled ceiling being installed I am "assuming" that you can remove it without "damaging the building surface" which would then make it to be ACCESSIBLE.

SO,............the electrician installed the cans without ANY staples to "secure" the NM cable. The can light termination/clamps are well within the 4.5'.

After some spirited discussions, from the electrician and another local inspector the "interpetation" is that there is absolutely NO NEED to stable as long as the clamp/device is within 4.5' from the last SUPPORT. The support in this case is a drilled hole.

I find this being questionable as we're not FISHING the wires and the ability to SECURE is there.

I would sincerely appreciate some help with opinions, and advice.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

 

[Gregg Harris]

Hello,

I believe this is my first time posting here.

I have lurked about and found topics and answers that were very helpful/interesting.

I have come across an "issue" with the section NEC 334.30(B)(2).

An electrical contractor istalled can lights that are in a basement ceiling. Apparently there was a "miscommunication/assumption" about the ceiling finish.

I was told, or believe it was said the ceiling was going to be drywalled. BUT apparently although the can lights were nailed in place, there is a tiled ceiling that is being installed. With this tiled ceiling being installed I am "assuming" that you can remove it without "damaging the building surface" which would then make it to be ACCESSIBLE.

SO,............the electrician installed the cans without ANY staples to "secure" the NM cable. The can light termination/clamps are well within the 4.5'.

After some spirited discussions, from the electrician and another local inspector the "interpetation" is that there is absolutely NO NEED to stable as long as the clamp/device is within 4.5' from the last SUPPORT. The support in this case is a drilled hole.

I find this being questionable as we're not FISHING the wires and the ability to SECURE is there.

I would sincerely appreciate some help with opinions, and advice.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

It is not clear what your question is. Are you asking if the NM going through the bored hole within the 4 and 1/2 inches is compliant?

 

[Pete S]

My question is: Is the last support of a drilled hole, through a floor joist, within 4 and 1/2 feet from the clamp/fixture correct.

Thus not requiring ANY further support or actually securing?

This is all new, and NOT being "fished" through.

The installer felt he met the Code by doing this.

The ceiling is apparently accessible by definition.

 

[cowboyjwc]

My question is: Is the last support of a drilled hole, through a floor joist, within 4 and 1/2 feet from the clamp/fixture correct.

Thus not requiring ANY further support or actually securing?

This is all new, and NOT being "fished" through.

The installer felt he met the Code by doing this.

The ceiling is apparently accessible by definition.

Through the hole is "supported" stapled is "secured".

The second part of that sentence is "...and within 12" of every....junction box......."

So my take is, secured within 12" of the fixture and then every 4.5'. If the run is only 4.5' then it is still 12" from each fixture.

 

[Gregg Harris]

My question is: Is the last support of a drilled hole, through a floor joist, within 4 and 1/2 feet from the clamp/fixture correct.

Thus not requiring ANY further support or actually securing?

This is all new, and NOT being "fished" through.

The installer felt he met the Code by doing this.

The ceiling is apparently accessible by definition.

Compliant
(2)

Is not more than 1.4 m (4? ft) from the last point of cable support to the point of connection to a luminaire or other piece of electrical equipment and the cable and point of connection are within an accessible ceiling.

 

[Pete S]

I'm using the 2008 NEC for the 334.30(B)(2) reference.

I understand using a "whip" above a ceiling, but the verbiage only uses "support" NOT "secured".

Thus my quandry.

 

[Pete S]

Thanks! I didn't see your reply Greg till after I posted.

 

[Gregg Harris]

I'm using the 2008 NEC for the 334.30(B)(2) reference.

I understand using a "whip" above a ceiling, but the verbiage only uses "support" NOT "secured".

Thus my quandry.

From 2008, same as 2011
(A) Horizontal Runs Through Holes and Notches. In other than vertical runs, cables installed in accordance with 300.4 shall be considered to be supported and secured where such support does not exceed 1.4-m (4?-ft) intervals and the nonmetallic-sheathed cable is securely fastened in place by an approved means within 300 mm (12 in.) of each box, cabinet, conduit body, or other nonmetallic-sheathed cable termination.

It is supported and secured, and I would be willing to say that there is a connector being used at the junction box for the fixture.

 

[cowboyjwc]

From 2008, same as 2011
(A) Horizontal Runs Through Holes and Notches. In other than vertical runs, cables installed in accordance with 300.4 shall be considered to be supported and secured where such support does not exceed 1.4-m (4?-ft) intervals and the nonmetallic-sheathed cable is securely fastened in place by an approved means within 300 mm (12 in.) of each box, cabinet, conduit body, or other nonmetallic-sheathed cable termination.

It is supported and secured, and I would be willing to say that there is a connector being used at the junction box for the fixture.

Don't forget the "and".

 

[david]

Hello,


I was told, or believe it was said the ceiling was going to be drywalled. BUT apparently although the can lights were nailed in place, there is a tiled ceiling that is being installed. With this tiled ceiling being installed I am "assuming" that you can remove it without "damaging the building surface" which would then make it to be ACCESSIBLE.


Thanks in advance for your responses.

I would need clarification if these tile are stappled in place (do not lift out to allow access). Or are you talking about panels that where designed to be lifted out to allow access?
What are you considering the building surface. I at first read your post to mean removable panels, after reading again I am not sure if that is clear.

 

[mjf]

From 2008, same as 2011
(A) Horizontal Runs Through Holes and Notches. In other than vertical runs, cables installed in accordance with 300.4 shall be considered to be supported and secured where such support does not exceed 1.4-m (4?-ft) intervals and the nonmetallic-sheathed cable is securely fastened in place by an approved means within 300 mm (12 in.) of each box, cabinet, conduit body, or other nonmetallic-sheathed cable termination.

It is supported and secured, and I would be willing to say that there is a connector being used at the junction box for the fixture.

To me this reads: supported within 4.5 feet and secured at the fixture junction box AND within 12 inches of the JB.

Doesn't seem to make a difference if it's drywall, acoustical tiles, unfinished or banana peels as a final ceiling surface.

 

[Gregg Harris]

To me this reads: supported within 4.5 feet and secured at the fixture junction box AND within 12 inches of the JB.

Doesn't seem to make a difference if it's drywall, acoustical tiles, unfinished or banana peels as a final ceiling surface.

That was used to show the verbiage to the OP as to where the "supported and secured" was in the article, bellow is what he is questioning as being compliant.

334.30(B) (2)

(2)

Is not more than 1.4 m (4? ft) from the last point of cable support to the point of connection to a luminaire or other piece of electrical equipment and the cable and point of connection are within an accessible ceiling.

 

[mjf]

I still think it has to comply with 334.30 and must also be secured within 12" of the JB.

 

[Gregg Harris]

I still think it has to comply with 334.30 and must also be secured within 12" of the JB.

No it is an exception to 334.30

 

[mjf]

why is (some of) this book so difficult to decipher??

Some sections state the code and then list specific exceptions.

Some sections list the code and then follow it with (A), (B), (C), etc, which seem to give exceptions (If A, B, and C "trump" the code section they refer back to).


Was typing this while you replied

 

[Gregg Harris]

why is (some of) this book so difficult to decipher??

Some sections state the code and then list specific exceptions.

Some sections list the code and then follow it with (A), (B), (C), etc, which seem to give exceptions (If A, B, and C "trump" the code section they refer back to).


Was typing this while you replied

All scenarios are not the same, that is one reason IMHO the NEC is the most intreaging and most technically advanced code that is in use.

 

[mjf]

So, if I can apply 334.30 (B) (2) then I can disregard the requirements of 334.30?

 

[hurk27]

If this is tongue and grove acoustic tiles that are stapled in place then I would not consider the ceiling accessible as you would have to damage the tiles to remove them because of the tongue and grove and the fact that they are stapled in place, if this is what is commonly referred to as a dropped ceiling that uses T bars so that the tiles just have to be pushed up and slid over, then 334.30(B)(2) would allow the 4.5 feet.

Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of
being removed or exposed without damaging the building
structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure
or finish of the building.

Sorry but I have worked with those 1960ish tile ceilings before and I have never seen a way of removing one without doing some damage to them even if it is just cutting the tongue off and pulling the staples, so I think the definition in 100 will agree that this type of finish is considered permanent just like drywall.

But with that said, I don't see any extra danger because to me if we are allowed to fish between points what would be the difference? as long as the cable doesn't end up between the tile and joist where it could be pinched or stapled.

Also this allowance is the same allowance used for FMC to lights in a exposed or drop ceiling but allowed up to 6' in 348.30 exception 4