Ideal Suretest 61-164 problem

[jumper]

I have 3 receptacles on an individual circuit. I shall call them R1, R2, and R3. R1 is closest to the panel and R3 is the furthest away.

Wiring is #12 with a wire EGC in 1/2" EMT. Routing is from SQ QO 208Y/120 panel on a GFCI breaker to R1 first, then R2, then R3.

Panel power is supplied from a generator inlet connected to a power cord off a bussbar connection.

R1 shows a false/bootleg ground condition with Suretest 61-164 tester, R2 and R3 show correct.

2 brand new 61-164 testers show this condition. Older 61-154 model says wiring is correct.

GFCI breaker test button works and all testers trip the GFCI correctly. Yes, I know that GFCI does need a ground to work.

All wiring checked and is correct.

Any ideas? The QA guys are busting my chops and I am at a loss. I have this condition on 6 installs.

 

[George Stolz]

I recall they had problems with these claiming there is a bootleg ground/neutral connection if the distance from the main/system bonding jumper is very short. The tester looks for a little resistance between neutral and ground to confirm they are separate wires.

Is your home run very short, with the bond in the panel or somewhere close by?

 

[jumper]

I recall they had problems with these claiming there is a bootleg ground/neutral connection if the distance from the main/system bonding jumper is very short. The tester looks for a little resistance between neutral and ground to confirm they are separate wires.

Is your home run very short, with the bond in the panel or somewhere close by?

R1 is mounted to the panel. EGC is about 1 1/2 feet max to ground buss.

PS. If switching the routing solves this problem I am going to so happy!!! This is a DOD project.

 

[jumper]

R1 is mounted to the panel. EGC is about 1 1/2 feet max to ground buss.

PS. If switching the routing solves this problem I am going to so happy!!! This is a DOD project.

Switching the wiring may help, but since box is mounted to panel I may still get false reading....hmmmm.

Cannot relocate box..hmmm.

 

[George Stolz]

If the tester is misreading problems, why do anything to "correct" them?

 

[augie47]

Did you say your outlets are being powered by a generator ?
If so, I have found a lot of my testers don't perform as well on generator power.
I've shown "booted" grounds, non working AFCIs, etc on jobs with generator supply. Nothing changes but the addition of utility
power and all tests well.

 

[brian john]

I have owned several Suretest and find them anything but acceptable for testing where consistency and detailed testing is required.

 

[G._S._Ohm]

With a small step-down transformer, a DVM to measure voltage V and four alligator clips (to make Kelvin clips) you can pass a few hundred mA I into this connection and confirm that the low resistance R = V/I bolted connection you're seeing corresponds to the distances and wire gauges.
#12 copper is about 1.6 milliohms/ft. @ 20C.

A 4-1/2 digit DMM may also work on the ohms range but it's iffy.

 

[jumper]

If the tester is misreading problems, why do anything to "correct" them?

'Cause it is a Dept. of Defense contract I am working on and they want it fixed.

 

[jumper]

Did you say your outlets are being powered by a generator ?
If so, I have found a lot of my testers don't perform as well on generator power.
I've shown "booted" grounds, non working AFCIs, etc on jobs with generator supply. Nothing changes but the addition of utility
power and all tests well.

The panel is in a containerized unit that has a generator inlet for future connection, but at the supply at the moment it is gen cord connected to a building overhead buss.

 

[jumper]

I have owned several Suretest and find them anything but acceptable for testing where consistency and detailed testing is required.

I told the QA (quality assurance) weenies that it was their tester and physically showed them the wiring and connections, but they still are giving me grief.:rant:

 

[jumper]

With a small step-down transformer, a DVM to measure voltage V and four alligator clips (to make Kelvin clips) you can pass a few hundred mA I into this connection and confirm that the low resistance R = V/I bolted connection you're seeing corresponds to the distances and wire gauges.
#12 copper is about 1.6 milliohms/ft. @ 20C.

A 4-1/2 digit DMM may also work on the ohms range but it's iffy.

Thanks, but that is a no go for me. Getting a testing procedure changed would all but take an Act of Congress.

The job is building portable support facilities for the military. A simple spec change can take days.

It took 6 guys 3 hours to decide that it was okay for me to widen a 1/4" holes to 5/16" on a control cabinet so it it would mount to its support bracket.

 

[G._S._Ohm]

Thanks, but that is a no go for me. Getting a testing procedure changed would all but take an Act of Congress.

The job is building portable support facilities for the military. A simple spec change can take days.

It took 6 guys 3 hours to decide that it was okay for me to widen a 1/4" holes to 5/16" on a control cabinet so it it would mount to its support bracket.

You're welcome.
No such bureaucracy problems for me :thumbsup:

And if I add a small series incand. bulb, this thing sort of becomes a constant current source even with line voltage variations. I have enough parts, I just need to put them together.

The thing with large organizations is that no one wants to make decisions, especially not the people paid to make them.

 

[mivey]

'Cause it is a Dept. of Defense contract I am working on and they want it fixed.

There is nothing to fix. The tester is reading the main bonding jumper in the panel. To "fix" what they want, you would have to separate the grounds and neutrals in the panel.

From the Suretest manual:

False Ground Indication
NEC article 250-23(a) only allows for a neutral-to-ground bond to occur at the main panel. The SureTest suggests any improper neutral-to-ground bonds within 15-20 feet upstream (towards the panel) of the tester. If this bond improperly occurs in the branch circuit through a bootleg ground via a jumper wire at the outlet device or inadvertent contact of the ground wire to the neutral connection, the SureTest indicates a false ground condition. Note that if the SureTest is within 15- 20 feet of the main panel, the unit will indicate a false ground condition on a properly wired circuit due to its close proximity to the proper ground-neutral bond in the main panel.

The real fix is to use the tester correctly.

 

[John120/240]

Switching the wiring may help, but since box is mounted to panel I may still get false reading....hmmmm.

Cannot relocate box..hmmm.

Can you make the first recptacle the second or last one ? Bypass the box mounted on the panel,

make R2 your new first recptacle then back track to the old R1 which is now the new R2?

Just an idea.

 

[PetrosA]

Plug the tester into a 25' extension cord and check that outlet. It will check fine. Below 2-3 Ohms, most testers like that will indicate a bootleg ground. Tell those bozos to read the manual. It's in there.

Edit to add quote from manual, page 4:

False Ground Indication
The SureTest indicates when a false ground condition exists from an improper bond
via a bootleg (ground jumper wire at the outlet device) or inadvertent contact of the
ground wire to the neutral connection. Note that if the SureTest is within 15-20 feet
of the main panel, the unit will indicate a false ground condition on a properly wired
circuit due to its close proximity to the proper ground-neutral bond in the main
panel.

 

[John120/240]

Plug the tester into a 25' extension cord and check that outlet. It will check fine. Below 2-3 Ohms, most testers like that will indicate a bootleg ground. Tell those bozos to read the manual. It's in there.

Edit to add quote from manual, page 4:

False Ground Indication Note that if the SureTest is within 15-20 feet
of the main panel, the unit will indicate a false ground condition on a properly wired
circuit due to its close proximity to the proper ground-neutral bond in the main
panel.

Thank You PetrosA With the manufacturers statement that this is normal, what more can

you do ? Visually trace the wires from here to there & all should appear kosher.

 

[jumper]

There is nothing to fix. The tester is reading the main bonding jumper in the panel. To "fix" what they want, you would have to separate the grounds and neutrals in the panel.

From the Suretest manual:

False Ground Indication
NEC article 250-23(a) only allows for a neutral-to-ground bond to occur at the main panel. The SureTest suggests any improper neutral-to-ground bonds within 15-20 feet upstream (towards the panel) of the tester. If this bond improperly occurs in the branch circuit through a bootleg ground via a jumper wire at the outlet device or inadvertent contact of the ground wire to the neutral connection, the SureTest indicates a false ground condition. Note that if the SureTest is within 15- 20 feet of the main panel, the unit will indicate a false ground condition on a properly wired circuit due to its close proximity to the proper ground-neutral bond in the main panel.

The real fix is to use the tester correctly.

Plug the tester into a 25' extension cord and check that outlet. It will check fine. Below 2-3 Ohms, most testers like that will indicate a bootleg ground. Tell those bozos to read the manual. It's in there.

Edit to add quote from manual, page 4:

False Ground Indication
The SureTest indicates when a false ground condition exists from an improper bond
via a bootleg (ground jumper wire at the outlet device) or inadvertent contact of the
ground wire to the neutral connection. Note that if the SureTest is within 15-20 feet
of the main panel, the unit will indicate a false ground condition on a properly wired
circuit due to its close proximity to the proper ground-neutral bond in the main
panel.

Thank you!!!!:happyyes:

The info from the manual and the extension cord idea was just the ticket.:thumbsup:

The gods are happy and I do not have to sacrifice a chicken to appease them now.

 

[PetrosA]

I'm glad you got things sorted out. I have to bow out to Mivey for posting the quote from the manual first. I hadn't noticed that when I posted my response. Sorry!

 

[mivey]

The gods are happy and I do not have to sacrifice a chicken to appease them now.

Fried chicken...Yuuumm
.

I'm glad you got things sorted out. I have to bow out to Mivey for posting the quote from the manual first. I hadn't noticed that when I posted my response. Sorry!

Too late. I've already hired an attorney.