Receptacle by tub

[Dennis Alwon]

Come to think of it, it's OK to have an outlet this close to a tub, but you can't have a light fixture above the tub, because someone might change the bulbs while bathing.
:jawdrop:

Not true. You can have a fixture over a tub. These fixtures are damp rated and the install is compliant. But I do understand and agree with what you mean.

 

[jazer]

This entire subject is ridiculous. Water and electricity do not mix. Whether a GFCI is involved or not. The code definitaly needs modified to the extent that a distance/measurement from the edge of an apparatus used for bathing/showering is given to forbid the installation of a recptacle. I look at the OP pic and imagine someone taking a bath and their spouse using the receptacle at the same time, then dropping the device into the tub, GFCI or not, I am not a gambling man.

 

[George Stolz]

I think we might be over-analyzing this more than a little bit. I believe the intent is to prohibit the installations pictured, and most AHJs will read this the same way. Why overcomplicate things?

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

I think we might be over-analyzing this more than a little bit. I believe the intent is to prohibit the installations pictured, and most AHJs will read this the same way. Why overcomplicate things?

What is the violation in the photo Dennis submitted:?

 

[George Stolz]

I was referring to the recep ones, not the lighting one.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I think we might be over-analyzing this more than a little bit. I believe the intent is to prohibit the installations pictured, and most AHJs will read this the same way. Why overcomplicate things?

Well the problem is at what point would the receptacle be compliant. Look at the first pic I posted and tell me how far to the left it needs to be to be compliant.

 

[George Stolz]

I'd say out of the tub area - as stated in the NEC.

409.9(C) Bathtub and Shower Space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I'd say out of the tub area - as stated in the NEC.

That is the point of contention. What does over the shower stall mean? On the wall of the tub? Suppose there is a bathtub surround that is 2 feet to the wall. Is that wall still a NO-NO. It is clearly NOT clear

 

[GlennH]

I got it,

cut the receptical into the end of the vanity, that will make it safer.:angel:

 

[George Stolz]

It is clearly NOT clear

Well, if you want to push your luck, install a receptacle there and point it out to the AHJ. Then you will have the answer from one AHJ. With a little dedication, you could survey half the country seeking out all the permutations of 90.4.

Since I am the first line of defense for the NEC, then I will refuse customer requests to install a receptacle there, citing the code referenced. I may never know the AHJ's call in every jurisdiction I work in, but I won't lose a minute's sleep wondering.

It's a non-issue, just stay away from the tub.

Really, the argument of "well, the wall outside the tub is not 'over the tub'" is weak at best. You seriously want to try to sell an inspector that the intent is to deny receptacles in the ceiling over bathtubs? I'd rather try to retain my credibility with an inspector than try to negotiate such a feeble interpretation.

JMO,

 

[Dennis Alwon]

George in the pic I posted first with the recep. near the tub but not over the tub-- is it compliant? If I move the recep. a few inches it will be over the sink but not any safer. The layout is bad design and I agree i WOULD NOT install it as pictured in either one however I think the NEC needs to perhaps have a distance away from the tub. Not sure with gfci why this is a major issue anyway.

 

[hurk27]

however I think the NEC needs to perhaps have a distance away from the tub. Not sure with gfci why this is a major issue anyway.

A GFCI has only limited protection if a load is using a two wire plug and cord, and all plumbing is non-conductive, this has been demonstrated on here and at a few IAEI meetings with a plastic bucket by throwing a hair dryer into a plastic bucket of water with it turned on, and it was plugged into a GFCI, the GFCI didn't trip, but what was also found is that there were voltage gradients around this hair dryer that could have caused a death if a person was in the water with it, the same was not true for appliances with a three wire cord as the GFCI now had a fault return path and tripped.

I for one have never understood why receptacles were allowed close to a tub but not a swimming pool or hot tub, at least a hot tub or pool will have some sort of grounding path to trip a GFCI even if a appliance with a two wire cord fell in, I understand that bathroom design can make it very hard to always avoid putting a receptacle away from a tub, as pocket doors are one of the main problems that can cause it, but even now with most appliances used in bathrooms requiring a three wire cord we still will have many existing appliances that won't and things like radios and small TV's are still being made with two wire cords.

410.10(D) I think is where most inspectors got the idea that we should use the rim of the tub as the boundary as that is the only place it was ever mentioned that defined a tub or shower space, but on the same token 410.10(D) would also be a good guide as to how to write a definition that could apply to 406.8(C)