Wire numbers and schematics

[Jonusmc]

Hello all, We have purchased a small piece of automation from a vendor and it arrived with no wire numbers and no electrical or pneumatic schematics. Contact with the vendor and support from same is not going well. Is there any specific standard, rule, etc. that indicates that a industrial control panel must include wire numbers? There is a plc, hmi, 24vdc ps in this panel - but no labels.
Our company produces factory automation and we always supply wire numbers and schematics. If fact we cannot even think how the panel got wired. So we need to be able to tell the vendor of any specs the he has to follow [if any] to comply.
Thanks

 

[jumper]

You looking for something like this?

409.110 Marking. An industrial control panel shall be
marked with the following information that is plainly visible
after installation:
(1) Manufacturer?s name, trademark, or other descriptive
marking by which the organization responsible for the
product can be identified.
(2) Supply voltage, number of phases, frequency, and fullload
current for each incoming supply circuit.
(3) Industrial control panels supplied by more than one
power source such that more than one disconnecting
means is required to disconnect all power within the
control panel shall be marked to indicate that more than
one disconnecting means is required to de-energize the
equipment.
(4) Short-circuit current rating of the industrial control
panel based on one of the following:
a. Short-circuit current rating of a listed and labeled
assembly
b. Short-circuit current rating established utilizing an
approved method
Informational Note: UL 508A-2001, Standard for Industrial
Control Panels, Supplement SB, is an example of an
approved method.
Exception to (4): Short-circuit current rating markings are
not required for industrial control panels containing only
control circuit components.
(5) If the industrial control panel is intended as service
equipment, it shall be marked to identify it as being
suitable for use as service equipment.
(6) Electrical wiring diagram or the identification number
of a separate electrical wiring diagram or a designation
referenced in a separate wiring diagram.
(7) An enclosure type number shall be marked on the industrial
control panel enclosure.

 

[Jonusmc]

Jumper
That labeling we are aware of thanks - what we have is that none of the wires themselves have a number on them; L1, 24vdc, i:00600, X0, etc. So troubleshooting this panel is a no go.
especially without schematics to begin with
thanks
j

 

[Besoeker]

Hello all, We have purchased a small piece of automation from a vendor and it arrived with no wire numbers and no electrical or pneumatic schematics. Contact with the vendor and support from same is not going well. Is there any specific standard, rule, etc. that indicates that a industrial control panel must include wire numbers? There is a plc, hmi, 24vdc ps in this panel - but no labels.
Our company produces factory automation and we always supply wire numbers and schematics. If fact we cannot even think how the panel got wired. So we need to be able to tell the vendor of any specs the he has to follow [if any] to comply.
Thanks

A mess and I'm with you - It would be interesting know how the vendor wired it. Maybe there was a pre-assembled cable loom like on a car. But not good on an industrial control panel.
If there are no suitable specs, you could write your own.
That's often what we get from customers at RFQ (request for quotation) stage.

These are a few clauses from a ten page document (and it's one of many) but it can be as simple or as comprehensive as you think it needs to be to avoid the sort of craappy panel you got.

• All internal wiring shall be PVC insulated 600/1000V grade.
• Wiring identification shall be by numbered and or lettered ferrules of insulating material adjacent to the terminals.
• All wiring for external connections shall be brought out to individual terminals on a readily accessible terminal block and shall be numbered according to the client name standard schematic numbering system.
• All components and devices shall be identified within the cubicle or panel with the reference shown on the Vendor's schematic diagrams. Similarly all terminals shall be provided with identification references and their associated wiring fitted with identification ferrules. Spare terminals shall be provided.

And the client also specifies a comprehensive list of documents that are required to be provided - the Document Dossier.
It sounds like a bit of a pain but when you get used to it, it works very well and helps the project run well.

 

[petersonra]

If you spec a UL listed panel, you would not really need much else as far as specs go. I would not accept a panel designed and built that way.

having said that, it is not unheard of. it takes time to put wire markers on wires. if a company wants to make something as cheap as possible, there are all kind of short cuts they can take. I have seen control panels with PLCs shipped that have no terminals for field wiring. the installer had to wire the field devices right to the I/O card.

I have seen them where the machine builder does not supply a main disconnect or OCPD - just a note on the drawing that the disconenct of OCPD is "by others".

 

[dicklaxt]

I don't believe there is a hard fast rule but it is generally accepted practice. What a mess that would be even if you knew the logic,chasing down the routing within,connections and assigning an identifier to a schematic is going to be a PITA,,,,but hey look at it this way,it will be rewarding to get it all said and done and working.

I'd do it for free if you want to drop it by my house and I'm serious,15 miles SW of Houston,Texas.

dick

 

[Besoeker]

If you spec a UL listed panel, you would not really need much else as far as specs go. I would not accept a panel designed and built that way.

having said that, it is not unheard of. it takes time to put wire markers on wires. if a company wants to make something as cheap as possible, there are all kind of short cuts they can take. I have seen control panels with PLCs shipped that have no terminals for field wiring. the installer had to wire the field devices right to the I/O card.

I'm most of us have come across cheap and nasty at some point. And if, as a buyer, you are buying a product rather than a system, you probably have no control over how it is made. I don't know which it was here.

I have seen them where the machine builder does not supply a main disconnect or OCPD - just a note on the drawing that the disconenct of OCPD is "by others".

The OP hasn't even been supplied drawings. Not good.

 

[Jonusmc]

Thanks all - i am in Florida
We have received the build specs from customers but have never had the need of having our own[this is the first time we bought an assembled piece of automation] or thought it necessary to spec wire numbers.
We are now in the process of creating the spec and using it on future projects.
Again thanks all for the info
j

 

[Besoeker]

Thanks all - i am in Florida
We have received the build specs from customers but have never had the need of having our own[this is the first time we bought an assembled piece of automation] or thought it necessary to spec wire numbers.
We are now in the process of creating the spec and using it on future projects.
Again thanks all for the info
j

A result...at least for future projects.

 

[petersonra]

Thanks all - i am in Florida
We have received the build specs from customers but have never had the need of having our own[this is the first time we bought an assembled piece of automation] or thought it necessary to spec wire numbers.
We are now in the process of creating the spec and using it on future projects.
Again thanks all for the info
j

I strongly suggest that you not create your own spec for control panels. It is time consuming and you will inevitably forget stuff that needs to be there. Just spec UL508a listed panels. It is quite comprehensive and there is not anything left out that I have run across.

The only thing else that you need spec is your plants preferences for components, enclosure paint color, etc, that is not part of UL508a. Don't forget to spec SCCR as well.

 

[Besoeker]

I strongly suggest that you not create your own spec for control panels. It is time consuming and you will inevitably forget stuff that needs to be there. Just spec UL508a listed panels. It is quite comprehensive and there is not anything left out that I have run across.

Does that spec require electrical diagrams with wire numbers to be supplied to the purchaser?
Just asking.

 

[petersonra]

Does that spec require electrical diagrams with wire numbers to be supplied to the purchaser?
Just asking.

Quite explicitly.

61.1 An industrial control panel shall be provided with a complete electrical schematic wiring diagram
including all components provided by the manufacturer. Field installed components shown on the
schematic wiring diagram shall comply with 60.3.

66.5.2 All conductors shall be identified at each termination by letter(s) or number(s) corresponding with
the wiring diagrams provided with the industrial control panel.

 

[Besoeker]

Quite explicitly.

Appreciated, thank you.

 

[Jraef]

I strongly suggest that you not create your own spec for control panels. It is time consuming and you will inevitably forget stuff that needs to be there. Just spec UL508a listed panels. It is quite comprehensive and there is not anything left out that I have run across.

The only thing else that you need spec is your plants preferences for components, enclosure paint color, etc, that is not part of UL508a. Don't forget to spec SCCR as well.

I agree. A UL listed panel will require the builder to have a schematic diagram, it's part of the doccumentation process with UL. UL does not however say what the diagram must look like, hence some people use a point-to-point diagram rather than a schematic and some people find it difficult to determine logic from that. But on the other had, some people find it difficult to trobleshoot wiring issues on a schematic ladder diagram that does NOT necessarily depict the exact way the wiring is routed between devices. So that is something to define in your spec.

UL also does NOT require wire numbering, nor does anyoneone else. That is strictly a consumer choice. If you want it, demand it. If you don't demand it, some people will not provide it. For example in MCC buckets, wire numbering is never provided unless specifically requested, and paid for, by the purchaser.

 

[Jraef]

Quite explicitly.

66.5.2 All conductors shall be identified at each termination by letter(s) or number(s) corresponding with
the wiring diagrams provided with the industrial control panel.

LOL, this is funny actually.

If you notice, 61.1 does not actually say that you must number the wires in the diagram, only that you must HAVE a diagram. I was told by my UL inspector however that 66.5.2 means IF your wiring diagram SHOWS numbers, you must have the numbers on the wires and they must match the diagram. But if your diagram does NOT have numbers shown, you do NOT need to put numbers on it. 66.5.2 was added in 2003 and I had originally obtained my UL508A in 1991, so when they changed it, I asked. But apparently even within UL, this is not universally interpreted the same way.

This section (66.5.2) by the way does NOT exist in UL845, which is for MCCs, or UL508C, which is for factory built components such as motor starters, combination starters, soft starters, drives etc. It only exists in UL508A for custom control panels.

 

[petersonra]

I agree. A UL listed panel will require the builder to have a schematic diagram, it's part of the doccumentation process with UL. UL does not however say what the diagram must look like, hence some people use a point-to-point diagram rather than a schematic and some people find it difficult to determine logic from that. But on the other had, some people find it difficult to trobleshoot wiring issues on a schematic ladder diagram that does NOT necessarily depict the exact way the wiring is routed between devices. So that is something to define in your spec.

UL also does NOT require wire numbering, nor does anyoneone else. That is strictly a consumer choice. If you want it, demand it. If you don't demand it, some people will not provide it. For example in MCC buckets, wire numbering is never provided unless specifically requested, and paid for, by the purchaser.

UL requires each consuctor be specifically identiifed by an alphanumeric code.

Every MCC I have ever seen has wire numbers. Usually X1,X1A, 2, etc. There is a diagram that accompanies each bucket. The wires themselves are not usually numbered though. Just the terminals.

 

[Besoeker]

The wires themselves are not usually numbered though. Just the terminals.

If a wire or maybe more than one falls out of a terminal and it, the wire(s) have no identification, how do you know which terminal it should go back into?

 

[Besoeker]

I strongly suggest that you not create your own spec for control panels. It is time consuming and you will inevitably forget stuff that needs to be there. Just spec UL508a listed panels. It is quite comprehensive and there is not anything left out that I have run across.

You could specify that as a minimum requirement and then additional requirements that you might want to have.

 

[ActionDave]

If a wire or maybe more than one falls out of a terminal and it, the wire(s) have no identification, how do you know which terminal it should go back into?

A clear conscience and a pure heart will lead you to the proper terminal generally.

 

[Besoeker]

A clear conscience and a pure heart will lead you to the proper terminal generally.

But wire and terminal numbers just might be a bit more foolproof......