dining room circuit

[Ponchik]

A new circuit strictly for the dining room is considered SABC?

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

A new circuit strictly for the dining room is considered SABC?

No and it must be AFCI protected. However, an SABC can feed the dining room but must still be AFCI protected.

 

[Ponchik]

No and it must be AFCI protected. However, an SABC can feed the dining room but must still be AFCI protected.

is that CAN serve or MUST serve.

i thought the dining room receptacles along with pantry MUST be served by one of the SABC.

 

[Gac66610]

Can be served, I run a separate circuit to the dining room, not ready to put AFCI protection on SABC (counter top receptacles) :happysad:

 

[jxofaltrds]

(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry,
breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling
unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and
floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop
outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for
refrigeration equipment.

 

[Ponchik]

(B) Small Appliances. (1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop
outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

the way that i understand this, the SABC must serve the mentioned areas that includes dining room. So back to my original question, if i install a dedicated circuit for the dining room it counts as a SABC. correct?

 

[stickboy1375]

A new circuit strictly for the dining room is considered SABC?

Yes! This is a SABC.... 210.52(B)(1), You can have more than then two min. required SABC's, but the dining room is required to be supplied off this requirement. So it can't serve anything else.... That means, you cant supply lighting, outside receptacles, etc. off this circuit.

 

[Ponchik]

Yes! This is a SABC.... 210.52(B)(1), You can have more than then two min. required SABC's, but the dining room is required to be supplied off this requirement. So it can't be served off anything else.... That means, you cant supply lighting, outside receptacles, etc. off this circuit.

Lets take it one more step, this circuit can not serve the living room receptacles.

 

[stickboy1375]

Lets take it one more step, this circuit can not serve the living room receptacles.

Absolutely not, 210.52(B)(2) would forbid this.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Lets take it one more step, this circuit can not serve the living room receptacles.

Not unless your AHJ considers it a similar area.

 

[stickboy1375]

Not unless your AHJ considers it a similar area.

I'll buy that, and this i'll agree with you on.

 

[infinity]

the way that i understand this, the SABC must serve the mentioned areas that includes dining room. So back to my original question, if i install a dedicated circuit for the dining room it counts as a SABC. correct?

Yes, it's required to be on a SABC, even if that circuit only serves the dining room receptacles it's still a SABC.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

So back to my original question, if i install a dedicated circuit for the dining room it counts as a SABC. correct?

Ok, I stand corrected but the logic eludes me. Technically, one could install one SABC to serve the entire kitchen area and one for the dining room and be compliant. How often are dining room receptacles used for small appliances? How often are kitchen receptacles used for small appliances? The answer is obvious. I think dining rooms should be removed from the SABC verbage. I know what the CMP's are assumimg and that is dining rooms will have small appliances used within, but in reality, the same can be said for many other areas of the dwelling. Should they be considered SABC's too?

 

[kwired]

Ok, I stand corrected but the logic eludes me. Technically, one could install one SABC to serve the entire kitchen area and one for the dining room and be compliant. How often are dining room receptacles used for small appliances? How often are kitchen receptacles used for small appliances? The answer is obvious. I think dining rooms should be removed from the SABC verbage. I know what the CMP's are assumimg and that is dining rooms will have small appliances used within, but in reality, the same can be said for many other areas of the dwelling. Should they be considered SABC's too?

210.52(B)(3):

(3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements. Receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small-appliance branch circuits, either or both of which shall also be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). Additional small-appliance branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). No small-appliance branch circuit shall serve more than one kitchen.

This says the receptacles serving the kitchen countertop surfaces must be supplied by at least two circuits, but those two circuits are permitted to supply other outlets that must be part of SABC circuits.

 

[jwelectric]

I know that I am a strange person but I must say that at least twice a year we use our buffet to hold such things as crock pots, warming trays, coffee makers, a microwave, and other such items. The buffet is in the dining room so I think this constitutes small appliances in the dining room.

I also know that as strange as I might be there are several people who do something similar around the holidays as some us them year round.

Don?t know what to say about us strange folks but if you think we are strange just keep reading this forum and you will find people who don?t know if a dwelling is a dwelling or not.

 

[kwired]

I know that I am a strange person but I must say that at least twice a year we use our buffet to hold such things as crock pots, warming trays, coffee makers, a microwave, and other such items. The buffet is in the dining room so I think this constitutes small appliances in the dining room.

And if that is something that is done quite often, there may be a need for multiple circuits in the dining room, maybe even a need for more circuits than what is in the kitchen.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

I know that I am a strange person but I must say that at least twice a year we use our buffet to hold such things as crock pots, warming trays, coffee makers, a microwave, and other such items. The buffet is in the dining room so I think this constitutes small appliances in the dining room.

I also know that as strange as I might be there are several people who do something similar around the holidays as some us them year round.

Don?t know what to say about us strange folks but if you think we are strange just keep reading this forum and you will find people who don?t know if a dwelling is a dwelling or not.

I understand but using that theory, why not require all receptacle circuits to 20A in case someone plugs in a portable space heater? I'll bet your dining room activities are in the vast minority of people with dining rooms. All I'm saying is the kitchen is by far the most common place where SA's are used.

 

[stickboy1375]

I understand but using that theory, why not require all receptacle circuits to 20A in case someone plugs in a portable space heater? I'll bet your dining room activities are in the vast minority of people with dining rooms. All I'm saying is the kitchen is by far the most common place where SA's are used.

What if you live in a climate that does not require a portable space heater? Your example is flawed. And for what its worth, I generally wire my dining room on a separate circuit, the kitchen will always have two circuits, maybe three, i've done some very big elaborate kitchens, and even wiring to bare minimum, I've never had a call back for a tripped breaker.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

What if you live in a climate that does not require a portable space heater? Your example is flawed.

Name me one area in the country that doesn't occasionally get chilly at night? Have you ever been in the desert at night....I doubt it based on your response.

 

[stickboy1375]

Name me one area in the country that doesn't occasionally get chilly at night? Have you ever been in the desert at night....I doubt it based on your response.

There has to be a minimum, and the NEC is pretty good at where it stands... if you want to wire a house all in #12 in case someone by chance plugs a space heater in, then go for it! I generally let the heating contractor take care of that end of business.