Refrigerators and GCFI's in concession stands?

[kwired]

About the only microwaves that are fastened in place are the ones that hang below a cabinet. The rest are designed to just sit on a shelf, counter, table, etc. without any fastening means. This is about the only microwave that is made in standard sizes also. I have seen people that have cabinets designed to fit a particular microwave and when the time comes to replace the microwave they have a hard time finding one that fits the space like the original one did.

When you buy a range to replace an old one all you need to know is how wide it was and you will find one to replace it.
The microwave that hangs under a cabinet is the same way.

 

[acrwc10]

In my opinion as soon as you fasten the microwave down you have a "permanent provision for cooking" and if you have sink and an area for food preparation you have a kitchen. Yes, a permanent microwave may trigger other rules, and would make many hotel rooms into dwelling units. This last issue is one of the real objections to calling a fastened in place microwave a "permanent provision for cooking".

The real issue here, as well as in many other areas of the code, is; "what is permanent". How is a stand alone stove that is not fastened in place permanent? Most will say that that stove is a "permanent provision for cooking", but many will say the fastened in place microwave is not. There have been some comments in the ROPs and ROCs that said the word "permanent" should not be used as nothing is really "permanent".

I hope youre not singing the Kansas song "dust in the wind" when you posted that. I don't agree that a sink and microwave make a Kitchen by NEC definition. Also the Building code would not allow for a single family home to have multiple kitchens, without calling it a multi famly dwelling.

About the only microwaves that are fastened in place are the ones that hang below a cabinet. The rest are designed to just sit on a shelf, counter, table, etc. without any fastening means. This is about the only microwave that is made in standard sizes also. I have seen people that have cabinets designed to fit a particular microwave and when the time comes to replace the microwave they have a hard time finding one that fits the space like the original one did.

When you buy a range to replace an old one all you need to know is how wide it was and you will find one to replace it.
The microwave that hangs under a cabinet is the same way.

I respectfully disagree, there are now microwaves in several configurations, the microwave drawer being one. Your not going to just pull one off the shelf at a large box store and they are as preminant as the range.

 

[renosteinke]

I can imagine the next debate will be: Does bolting the protable microwave down, so as to prevent theft, make it a 'permanent' means of cooking? Or, does the microwave really need to be a 'built-in' type of appliance to be considered 'permanent?'

 

[don_resqcapt19]

.. I don't agree that a sink and microwave make a Kitchen by NEC definition. Also the Building code would not allow for a single family home to have multiple kitchens, without calling it a multi famly dwelling.

So you are saying you can't cook with a permanetly installed microwave? It is my opinion that the sink, the bolted in place microwave and a prep area makes a kitchen. Now combine that kitchen with a sleeping area and a bathroom and you have a dwelling unit.
Many single family homes have multiple kitchens and are not multi-family dwellings.
As far as what the building code says, that does not really enter into the application of the NEC rules here. If the structure in question meets the NEC defintion of a dwelling unit the NEC rules for a dwelling unit apply no matter what the building code calls the structure.

 

[iwire]

OK, fair warning, I am going to ramble a bit. Bacardi and cokes are flowing.

What is permanent?

Don't snicker, seriously what appliance would you call permanent?

If you are like me you fully expect to replace any appliance you buy before you pass on. Appliances are not permanent, hell I don't even call buildings permanent, when I think permanent I think of lakes and mountains which just reflects how I apply my lifespan to the word permanent.

So I ask myself what did the CMP mean when they chose the word permanent. What I think they meant (and yes this is strictly my opinion) is that it would always be there.

So any cooking appliance that will always be in a space becomes 'permanent cooking means' regardless of it being secured with titanium hardware or just thrown on a stack of milk crates.

Consider this, the electrical safety of the object is not as influenced by it's being secured in place vs sitting on a counter as mush as it is by it's intended and frequency of use.


It is a good thing I am home or I would need a taxi. :lol:

 

[acrwc10]

So you are saying you can't cook with a permanetly installed microwave? It is my opinion that the sink, the bolted in place microwave and a prep area makes a kitchen. Now combine that kitchen with a sleeping area and a bathroom and you have a dwelling unit.
Many single family homes have multiple kitchens and are not multi-family dwellings.
As far as what the building code says, that does not really enter into the application of the NEC rules here. If the structure in question meets the NEC defintion of a dwelling unit the NEC rules for a dwelling unit apply no matter what the building code calls the structure.

Where in the NEC does it require a "Wet Bar" to have 2 SA circuits? I have wired several houses that have wet bars in them and they have a sink, a dishwasher, and lots of counter space for hot plates, microwave ovens, etc..... That doesn't make them kitchens.

 

[kwired]

Where in the NEC does it require a "Wet Bar" to have 2 SA circuits? I have wired several houses that have wet bars in them and they have a sink, a dishwasher, and lots of counter space for hot plates, microwave ovens, etc..... That doesn't make them kitchens.

If you call the hot plates, microwaves, or any other cooking appliance "permanent provisions for cooking" then they are NEC defined kitchens. Which raises the debate of what is permanent provisions for cooking?

 

[acrwc10]

If you call the hot plates, microwaves, or any other cooking appliance "permanent provisions for cooking" then they are NEC defined kitchens. Which raises the debate of what is permanent provisions for cooking?

I say it goes by what the plans call it, just like a "clothes closet" vs. "electrical room".

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

OK, fair warning, I am going to ramble a bit. Bacardi and cokes are flowing.

What is permanent?

Don't snicker, seriously what appliance would you call permanent?

If you are like me you fully expect to replace any appliance you buy before you pass on. Appliances are not permanent, hell I don't even call buildings permanent, when I think permanent I think of lakes and mountains which just reflects how I apply my lifespan to the word permanent.

So I ask myself what did the CMP mean when they chose the word permanent. What I think they meant (and yes this is strictly my opinion) is that it would always be there.

So any cooking appliance that will always be in a space becomes 'permanent cooking means' regardless of it being secured with titanium hardware or just thrown on a stack of milk crates.

Consider this, the electrical safety of the object is not as influenced by it's being secured in place vs sitting on a counter as mush as it is by it's intended and frequency of use.


It is a good thing I am home or I would need a taxi. :lol:

Careful Bob.......You may get a TWI.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I say it goes by what the plans call it, just like a "clothes closet" vs. "electrical room".

If it meets the NEC defintion of a kitchen, it is a kitchen no matter what the plans call the area.

 

[acrwc10]

If it meets the NEC defintion of a kitchen, it is a kitchen no matter what the plans call the area.

Would the definition of "kitchen" be between "Isolated" and "Labeled", in Article 100? I can't find it in the 2005 what section am I over looking?

 

[marti smith]

It was newly added in the '08.

 

[acrwc10]

It was newly added in the '08.

:slaphead::slaphead::slaphead:
In the words of Homer Simpson,"DOY".

Sorry Don, we just adopted the 08 this year and most of our open jobs are still under 05 code cycle.

 

[dkidd]

:slaphead::slaphead::slaphead:
In the words of Homer Simpson,"DOY".

I thought it was "DOH".

 

[acrwc10]

I thought it was "DOH".

You have too much free time.