Service Conductors Encased in 2" of Concrete? What!!

[stuartdmc]

A correction from the plan checker,
Add note to plan ?Service conductors within a building shall be encased in not less than 2 inches of concrete?, ?230.6.

This is what I have:
Within the main electrical room there is an existing 1200 amp UGPS, I am tapping out of the top of the UGPS running up and across the top with 4" emt to a 400amp meter section. the total run is 10ft. Does this really apply here? I know it is required if it runs under a building and or through a building if its coming from the street utility transformer. but not from the UGPS.

How would I comment back to the Plan checker on this?

Again Thanks for your comments

 

[augie47]

Possibly a dumb question on my part, but does the UGPS porvide Overcurrent Protection for your "tap" ?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If they are service conductors then yes it applies.

 

[stuartdmc]

Possibly a dumb question on my part, but does the UGPS porvide Overcurrent Protection for your "tap" ?

No! no OCP in the UGPS, just a set of bus bars with lugs.

There have been other taps to this section that are being ran up and overhead just as mine is with no encasement or OCP. I think he just wants the note on the dwg's, I don't think they will enforce it anyway. You Think. The Utility company doesn't require it.

 

[augie47]

It is always an AHJ call as the Code has no definite length requirement.
Similar to this thread:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=144159

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Maybe I misunderstood. Is the 10' the total length of the conduit or is it the total length of the conductors. The code requires that service disconnect be as near as possible to the point of entry. 230.70(A)... Depending on the situation it may be an ahj call and if it is on the plans that that could be another issue.

 

[stuartdmc]

Maybe I misunderstood. Is the 10' the total length of the conduit or is it the total length of the conductors. The code requires that service disconnect be as near as possible to the point of entry. 230.70(A)... Depending on the situation it may be an ahj call and if it is on the plans that that could be another issue.

Yes I agree.
The Plan checker wont budge, he wants the note on the plans. The wire is approx. 15 feet end to end. And the located of the service is as close as possible to the UGPs.

 

[ritelec]

Yes I agree.
The Plan checker wont budge, he wants the note on the plans.

Seams to me he's in the right. Can you put a 400a ocp before the meter??????? Can you call a mason???.........15' isn't that long and it is what it is.

 

[ritelec]

Just wondering about this..............how far can the 4" come out before it's encased in the concrete? Would it have to start at the 90 or however your coming out of the top? Could it start when you go horizontal. could you engineer it that the 4" emt is supported then an 8" pvc goes around it......holes on top and a slurry poured in..? Or goes in as one unit, with the 4" center in a 8" plumbing PVC and it's poured (standing up) then it's mounted...........

Just trying to think outside the box.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Seams to me he's in the right. Can you put a 400a ocp before the meter??????? Can you call a mason???.........15' isn't that long and it is what it is.

Rick it can be 100 feet long if it has overcurrent protection. Not an issue

 

[kwired]

Rick it can be 100 feet long if it has overcurrent protection. Not an issue

Exactly. If they are service conductors there is no overcurrent protection. That is the whole idea of limiting just how much is allowed inside a building. If this install was here the AHJ has a general rule of 5 feet of conductor the maximum allowed inside the building. Encasing it in minimum of 2 inches of concrete makes it considered to be outside of the building.

 

[Smart $]

Yes I agree.
The Plan checker wont budge, he wants the note on the plans. The wire is approx. 15 feet end to end. And the located of the service is as close as possible to the UGPs.

Please clarify, what is UGPS?

If it's a service equipment enclosure already inside with nothing more than service conductors and busbar, it seems to me the UGPS is a violation itself.

 

[Strathead]

Sorry, I found this list of abbreviations here. http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=83435&page=2&p=649535 but it does not list UGPS. Is there another one? I feel stupid that many others know what it is. I can figure underground... maybe something service. Please help. Is there a better list of abbreviations?

 

[ritelec]

Rick it can be 100 feet long if it has overcurrent protection. Not an issue

Yes, understood..:thumbsup:...........and 100' long with no ocp and concrete encased...:thumbsup:,,,,How far along after the tap with no ocp before it needs to be encased? 5' after the tap enclosure? If the tap enclosure is 5', encased right where the 4" would come out?

Again, just trying to think outside the box.


general note stuartdmc.........worked a job with many motor drops, each drop was different and had to be re-evaluated several times to make it work.............step back and look at it again with a fresh head..
several times if needed.......


Or we could introduce The Plan Checker to the Iceman................................wait, I forgot he died.

 

[iwire]

Yes, understood..:thumbsup:...........and 100' long with no ocp and concrete encased...:thumbsup:,,,,How far along after the tap with no ocp before it needs to be encased? 5' after the tap enclosure? If the tap enclosure is 5', encased right where the 4" would come out?

Nearest the point of entrance.

 

[ritelec]

Nearest the point of entrance.

Thanks iwire.............

Just one other thought if an ocp (first over current) was installed before the meter, the meter section may be constructed/designed with the ground/neutral bonded...................


Nothings easy.....

 

[iwire]

Thanks iwire.............

Just one other thought if an ocp (first over current) was installed before the meter, the meter section may be constructed/designed with the ground/neutral bonded...................


Nothings easy.....

Check out 250.142(B) exception 2.

 

[ritelec]

Check out 250.142(B) exception 2.

WOW......................who's da man!!!!

THANK YOU FOR THE KNOWLEDGE.


Rich

 

[Fulthrotl]

A correction from the plan checker,
Add note to plan ?Service conductors within a building shall be encased in not less than 2 inches of concrete?, ?230.6.

This is what I have:
Within the main electrical room there is an existing 1200 amp UGPS, I am tapping out of the top of the UGPS running up and across the top with 4" emt to a 400amp meter section. the total run is 10ft. Does this really apply here? I know it is required if it runs under a building and or through a building if its coming from the street utility transformer. but not from the UGPS.

How would I comment back to the Plan checker on this?

Again Thanks for your comments

had a situation once where GRC was accepted in lieu of the 2" encasement requirement.
i know that has nothing to do with the actual requirement you have been given, but the AHJ
said that was what he wanted in the particular issue we had, and it was the lesser of two evils.

 

[infinity]

Concrete encasement isn't so hard as long as you do some planning.