Laborers and Maintenance Mechanics Doing Electrical Work Question

[franklinmanklin]

Okay, first off I don't know if this is listed in the correct spot but here goes it...

I work for a large institution in many different counties and cities within my state. The Electrical Administrative Act (P.A. 217 of 1956 MCL can be found in Section 338.887 Sec. 7. (3)(i).) specifically applies to this issue. What can someone that is not licensed nor qualified do in regards to maintenance regarding any and all electrical work if they are also an employee but not an electrician? Some tell me that if the power can be shut off then anyone can work on it as long as it is not new work. This mostly stems from a background in refrigeration where they are granted a certain amount of work after the disconnect, lack of an electrician onsite, and laziness from old-school electricians. In fact, some institutions do the majority of the maintenance without proper licensure all over because they cannot afford to bring in a licensed tradesperson on site. I am sick of not getting a difinitive answer from an inspector and trying to argue a point with nothing but gray area, from my point of view, which has always been black and white while I was in the IBEW.

Any insight, opinion or corrections will be much appreciated.

 

[John120/240]

Who is going to be accountable/responsible when one of these untrained persons gets hurt ?

I would assume the public uses these state facilites ? Just because the power is off, does not

insure a safe installation when power is restored. The State of Michigan needs to get a handle

on this situation.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I'm not quite sure if I've got the full jest of what you're getting at, but I see this all the time or at least something along the lines. On many jobs, I never see the EC, just his guys. Does that mean his guys aren't qualified, no.

 

[MichaelGP3]

..... I am sick of not getting a difinitive answer from an inspector and trying to argue a point with nothing but gray area, from my point of view, which has always been black and white while I was in the IBEW.

Any insight, opinion or corrections will be much appreciated.

SOME organisations have unwritten rules that they perceive as more important than the written ones. Sometimes in these cases being right will get you voted off the island.

 

[realolman]

SOME organisations have unwritten rules that they perceive as more important than the written ones. Sometimes in these cases being right will get you voted off the island.

No truer words were ever spoken ... er ... written.

 

[MIEngineer]

MI PA 217 is pretty clear that any new electrical work requires a licensed electrician. Permitting may be based on the AHJ. There is an exception for "Minor repair work" < $100 that can be performed by unlicensced, but qualified, personnel.

The unwritten rules or claiming of exemptions that don't exist happens also.

 

[jim dungar]

The issue should be 'qualified' and 'trained' not the job title.

I know of journeyman electricians with over 30years experience in industrial facilities, that I would not let install a service at my cabin.
I know of many journeymen electricians while great at wiring houses, I would not let wire one the control panels I build.
I know of 'kids out of high school' that do wire my control panels, but I would not let them change a receptacle in the shop

But rules and laws must absolutely be obeyed.

 

[hurk27]

Many states treat an industrial property as its own entity, and since they hold their own liability it is up to them to over see the work performed, Over the years I have worked at many industrial sites and we would do most of the electrical work in-house, while some areas would only allow us to do basic (anything after the main) a few states would allow every thing, here in Indiana the steel mills even do their own medium voltage systems and have their own power plants, while some are the size of a city, they are also under OSHA, and do get inspected within the plant, we have done everything from substations to buss duct runs with MDPs and MCC's off them.

One point I would like to make is in industrial in the last 10 years you see much safer work being performed then you see in the residential/light commercial area, and most of the time done way above what the code requires.

Of course there are hacks in both areas but they don't last very long in industrial.

 

[GUNNING]

Follow the money

Follow the money

In Florida if you have a cell phone and can contact the office you are qualified.
We don't have a Journeymen's level anymore and it was a mistake to eliminate that level of competence.

As for work done within the scope of work described by the owner? If the owner is comfortable with the level of work the help need not complain. There used to be a code exception if an institution had an engineering component, like a utility or phone company, that was an expert in their products and plant, then no permitting or inspections were required. This was an acknowledgment to the expertise of the industry that was being regulated. It also demonstrated the expertise of lobbying by that industry. You could also defer from this that they understood the process enough to get there needs met.
If the plant burns down because of shoddy work then somebody is going to pay. If the plant is slowly being destroyed because of shoddy work then it is up to the money guys to determine how much they are willing to pay to have it fixed right, or not.
The guy who signs the checks and makes the agreements is in charge, not the help. The suits qualify the contract and its completion.
If its a union disagreement, or a separation of work agreement, a simple fix here would be to find a qualified business to sign on as a sub and assign them the work, or assign them the liability of the work. It is more paperwork than who lays hands on the tools.
What I think, respectfully, is that this observation, of who does what physically, is beyond your scope of work. It is a contractual compliance agreement. Normally there is a clause that all work will be performed in a workmanship like manner etc etc and will reference the laws of the state. You cannot have an enforceable illegal contract.
Follow the money. If any laws are broken then the money stops. It serves no purpose for that to happen. If this is a union work separation agreement, then pass it along up the feed chain till it gets to the suits and the paperwork gets fixed.

 

[MIEngineer]

This recently came up from the manufacturers association that they claim it isn't "fair" that they need to have a contractors license to perform work on their own property. In MI regardless of the facility type if it's governed by the NEC then there needs to be a contractor's license holder and a Master Electrician of record. In practice there appears to be some leniency for who is performing the work on the site; there seems to be a difference between an "Electrician" title in the industrial environment and a "Licensed Electrician" by the State as others have stated.

 

[GUNNING]

Overlooked chapter 90

Overlooked chapter 90

Contractor is code for line of liability. It insures (ensures) coverage for damages. I was looking at the 90 section of the NEC 2011 and it clearly defines what utility demarcation points are and where the NEC takes over. It specifically says regulation councils like utility boards can make rulings. It specifically states Communication companies and electric utilities areas of domain. It also states where power generation stops and the NEC starts. It also gives guidance on the AHJ leway as to what they can OK and what the states can specify. As an example the "less than $100 of work" would be allowed by statute.

 

[jumper]

The issue should be 'qualified' and 'trained' not the job title.

I know of journeyman electricians with over 30years experience in industrial facilities, that I would not let install a service at my cabin.
I know of many journeymen electricians while great at wiring houses, I would not let wire one the control panels I build.
I know of 'kids out of high school' that do wire my control panels, but I would not let them change a receptacle in the shop

But rules and laws must absolutely be obeyed.

Spot on.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[growler]

As an example the "less than $100 of work" would be allowed by statute.

Here you only need to be a licensed contractor to work for others. If you are an employee of an industry then you would not be working for others ( not offering services to the public ).

Some maintenance is allowed without a permit and from there it's anything is legal so long as you don't get caught.

I agree with Hurk in that the larger industries try to cover themselves pretty good (deep pockets & afraid of litigation ) but that some of the smaller (lite) industrial shops pretty much just do whatever they want and take their chances.

 

[petersonra]

The vast majority of electrical repairs that go on in most plants do not require the skills of a licensed electrician to accomplish. Many of them require a fair amount of knowledge of other trades as such as electrical to be able to do the work effectively.

As a practical matter, the idea of using local code requirements as a way of stirring up business may sound like a good idea, but in the end might well end up with some kind of law that actually is more "lenient" than what is in place now.

The reality is that most electricians (licensed or not) just could not survive in most industrial plants for long as maintenance electricians. They just do not have the right skill set. They might well be able to add enough to their existing skill set given enough time, but throw them in and most will just not do well.