Fine stranded wire with into mechanical lug ( screw type) ..UL test ?

[Twoskinsoneman]

Then they are not suitable for terminating a fine strand conductor in a connector that is not listed for use with fine strand conductors.

My point was that the NEC does not require terminations for finely stranded wire to be listed as was the original question.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

My point was that the NEC does not require terminations for finely stranded wire to be listed as was the original question.

110.14 in the 2011 code requires that they be identified for the purpose.

110.14 ... Connectors and terminals for conductors more finely stranded than Class B and Class C stranding as shown in Chapter 9, Table 10, shall be identified for the specific conductor class or classes.

Identified (as applied to equipment). Recognizable as suitable for the specific purpose, function, use, environment, application, and so forth, where described in a particular Code requirement.

Informational Note: Some examples of ways to determine suitability of equipment for a specific purpose, environment,or application include investigations by a qualified testing laboratory (listing and labeling), an inspection agency, or other organizations concerned with product evaluation.

While the code rule says identified for the purpose and that falls short of actaully requiring it to be listed, there is no real way for the inspector to know it is suitable for the purpose by looking at the termination unless it is marked as suitable for use with finely stranded conductors. If it is so marked it would be listed for the purpose.


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[AKUMAR]

once fine stranded wire crimped into ferrule ..they canbe used inside mechanical lug.
why mechanical lug : reaon is that these lugs can be used with MCCB inside panel .

But he is not referring to a crimped lug, he said a MECHANICAL lug, and I think Don's point is that the mechanical lug listing makes no allowance for use with a crimp ferrule as a way around the restriction against using it with fine stranded wire. I agree, I don't see it either. UL, and local inspectors by the way, will want to see a specific listing that allows for this.

AKUMAR, is there some reason why you cannot just use a crimped lug? That's the way everyone else does it and if you use the correct lug and crimper, it will be a UL recognized method of terminating fine stranded wire. If you need to attach multiple cables, use bolt or stud terminals.

PS:
Actually, strike that part about local inspectors, they would not actually be involved because the Code does not allow the use of fine stranded cable like that at all! You can use it inside of a UL listed panel assembly and only in the manner accepted by UL, which as far as I know is only crimped lugs.

Read this for why.
http://www.iaei.org/magazine/2005/01/do-you-know-where-your-cables-are-tonight/

 

[iwire]

once fine stranded wire crimped into ferrule ..they canbe used inside mechanical lug.
why mechanical lug : reaon is that these lugs can be used with MCCB inside panel .

I suggest crimp on pin adapters. These ones may not be the correct ones but you should be able to find them.


http://www.ilsco.com/ProductsDetail...pdU0DFKAA==&fjjfhjhj=pxSfT4xq9rrFSIQhsoRZrw==

 

[ptonsparky]

Are these pin adapters allowed to be used more than once?

 

[Jraef]

I suggest crimp on pin adapters. These ones may not be the correct ones but you should be able to find them.


http://www.ilsco.com/ProductsDetail...pdU0DFKAA==&fjjfhjhj=pxSfT4xq9rrFSIQhsoRZrw==

As you noted they are for use with Class B and C stranded, he wants to use finer stranding than that. So not suitable for the use. I know of no crimp on pin adapters that go onto fine stranded wire, only lugs.

Besides, if you have to crimp anyway why not just crimp on the proper lug?

 

[iceworm]

http://www.greaves-usa.com/pdf/Shoo-Pin%20Color%20Sheet.pdf

I've used these. I like them. Electricians like them. AHJ likes them.

ice

 

[iwire]

Besides, if you have to crimp anyway why not just crimp on the proper lug?

Because for most of us electricians in the field using lugs that are not directly listed on the front of the breaker will be a violation.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

once fine stranded wire crimped into ferrule ..they canbe used inside mechanical lug.
...

Can you cite a code section or UL White Book section that says that?

 

[AKUMAR]

Below link shows pin are class B & C ..if I am able to find for class K wire as well .
Can I use these pins into mechanical lug then ?

Here I go tlot of question from members why I can not use compression lugs etc..

reason is --I already has mechanical lugs for breaker so i need to work around this only to get fine straned wire connetced to mecahnical lug.

Intially I think Crimping of wire is solution but now shape of crimp( square ,trapezoidal) can be a problem to insert into round hole of mechanical lug.

I suggest crimp on pin adapters. These ones may not be the correct ones but you should be able to find them.


http://www.ilsco.com/ProductsDetail...pdU0DFKAA==&fjjfhjhj=pxSfT4xq9rrFSIQhsoRZrw==

 

[AKUMAR]

This will undoubedly solve the problem but the cost is very high . also need tool to operate die. cost wise not feasible

http://www.greaves-usa.com/pdf/Shoo-Pin Color Sheet.pdf

I've used these. I like them. Electricians like them. AHJ likes them.

ice

 

[ptonsparky]

This will undoubedly solve the problem but the cost is very high . also need tool to operate die. cost wise not feasible

Cost? You have to worry about cost? :roll:

 

[AKUMAR]

well ..lots of thoughts on compression lugs .
can anybody suggest a solution from any manufacturer to stack four compression lugs ( single hole) to one terminal ?

 

[iceworm]

Use normal stranded building wire from the CB to a Marathon Power Distribution Bolck. Connect the fine strand to the other side of the Marathon block.

If there is no room in the panel, you may need to mount a J-box adjacent to the panel.

Marathon Special Products makes PDBs that are rated for fine strand conductors.

ice

 

[iceworm]

This (Shoo-Pins)will undoubedly solve the problem but the cost is very high . also need tool to operate die. cost wise not feasible

Yes, sometimes that is a problem.

Here is another solution:
Square D has a paper that describes wrapping fine strand conductors with copper foil. One then inserts the foil wrapped conductor in a normal strand rated mechanical lug.

It does work well. Although some (AHJs) say the paper only applies to Square D lugs. In which case, you are hosed. However, if not, my personal opinion is this is a good method, regardless of the name stamped on the lug.

ice

 

[AKUMAR]

Could you send the link for product ..

Use normal stranded building wire from the CB to a Marathon Power Distribution Bolck. Connect the fine strand to the other side of the Marathon block.

If there is no room in the panel, you may need to mount a J-box adjacent to the panel.

Marathon Special Products makes PDBs that are rated for fine strand conductors.

ice

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Here is the Square D paper. Note that they did not have their lugs listed using the wrap, but did their own testing.

 

[AKUMAR]

I am having this paper ..This indicate if we have to use sleeve we need to do UL tests .

Here is the Square D paper. Note that they did not have their lugs listed using the wrap, but did their own testing.

 

[iceworm]

Could you send the link for product (Marathon special)..

Here you go.
http://www.marathonsp.com/PowerBlocks.html

ice

 

[iceworm]

I am having this paper ..This indicate if we have to use sleeve we need to do UL tests .

Tell us why you feel the need to do any UL tests to use this sleeve method. Are you using a different design lug than SQD shows in their paper or a different manufacturer (but similar design) and think you must do tests such as those noted in the SQD paper? I'm completely lost on the purpose of any UL type of tests.

ice