Smart meter fires

[Rampage_Rick]

So smart meters are a hot topic around here, as I'm sure they are elsewhere. I'm constanly trying to quell rumors of doom and gloom. I've had to explain to friends and family that the utility won't be able to tell when you turn on specific appliances like what's been spread by the local anti smart meter consortium. All it's reading is kWh, just 4 times a day instead of once a month.

Anyways, today I was sent an interesting article about how the meters that have caught fire are the result of all the RF energy these things supposedly put out. Now I'm of the opinion that this whole article is hogwash, and that the few cases of meter fires are the result of loose lugs or jaws that resulted in arcing or resistance heating after being disturbed. I can't see any RF device putting out enough energy to affect a 15 amp branch circuit, let alone the feeders. The specific meters around here put out 650 mW at 900 Mhz and 60 mW at 2.4 Ghz

http://emfsafetynetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Smart-Meters-Risk-for-fire.pdf

I wanted to get other opinions on this.

 

[jumper]

hogwash also imo. loose connections are more likely a problem as you already said.

 

[kwired]

So smart meters are a hot topic around here, as I'm sure they are elsewhere. I'm constanly trying to quell rumors of doom and gloom. I've had to explain to friends and family that the utility won't be able to tell when you turn on specific appliances like what's been spread by the local anti smart meter consortium. All it's reading is kWh, just 4 times a day instead of once a month.

Anyways, today I was sent an interesting article about how the meters that have caught fire are the result of all the RF energy these things supposedly put out. Now I'm of the opinion that this whole article is hogwash, and that the few cases of meter fires are the result of loose lugs or jaws that resulted in arcing or resistance heating after being disturbed. I can't see any RF device putting out enough energy to affect a 15 amp branch circuit, let alone the feeders. The specific meters around here put out 650 mW at 900 Mhz and 60 mW at 2.4 Ghz

http://emfsafetynetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Smart-Meters-Risk-for-fire.pdf

I wanted to get other opinions on this.

What kind of output do we have with a typical WiFi network? Wireless phones?

 

[K8MHZ]

What kind of output do we have with a typical WiFi network? Wireless phones?

Both are around 100 milliwatts.

 

[K8MHZ]

Electrical wiring was never intended to carry this - what amounts to an RF pollutant - on
the wiring. The higher the frequency, the greater the energy contained.

Well, I have been a licensed radio operator for almost 15 years and I know people running 1500 watts on frequencies up to 450 Mhz with no fires.

Also, as the frequency increases, so does path loss, not the amount of energy. Where is this extra energy supposed to come from?

Electrical wiring it is not sized for the amount of energy that radio frequency and
microwave radiation. These unintended signals that can come from new wireless sources
of many kinds are particularly a worry for the new smart meters that produce very high
intensity radio frequency energy in short bursts. Electrical fires are likely to be a
potential problem.

Plain BS. There is no data, empirical, experimental or otherwise to support that statement. The author is just making stuff up.

I am involved with our county's emergency communication (radio) service. I have been for over a decade. If RF of any sort ever (unintentionally) heated up a piece of house wiring enough to start a fire, I certainly would know about it.

Ham radio operators are affected by every form of RFI (Radio Frequency Interference) there is. Smart meters are so benign compared to other RFI generating monsters they are hardly noticed. A bad aquarium heater or a switching power supply can wipe out an entire band for several blocks, a plasma TV for hundreds of feet and a bad electric fence for miles. Even so, there is less than a millionth of the energy present at the wiring needed to even heat it up a micro fraction of a degree.

Smart meters use different means to communicate. Some use PLC (transmit / receive on wire only, like X-10 devices) cellular, Wi-Fi to cellular, satellite and licensed radio services, ALL of which have been used for other purposes for decades with no mention of the hazards posed by the author.

 

[augie47]

Some of our local good ole boys are against them as they interfere with their income from "crops"

http://www.allvoices.com/contribute...-and-bust-indoor-marijuana-growing-operations

 

[K8MHZ]

Some of our local good ole boys are against them as they interfere with their income from "crops"

http://www.allvoices.com/contribute...-and-bust-indoor-marijuana-growing-operations

Utility records have been used in that manner for years. I don't see what additional information a smart meter would supply that wouldn't just show up in overall use.

 

[gar]

120217-1605 EST

There is a major problem with theft of electrical energy. Meters are stolen and moved to a location where the meter has been removed for failure to pay the electric bill. With smart meters the power company can relatively quickly find a stolen meter that has been moved to a new location.

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[Hv&Lv]

120217-1605 EST

There is a major problem with theft of electrical energy. Meters are stolen and moved to a location where the meter has been removed for failure to pay the electric bill. With smart meters the power company can relatively quickly find a stolen meter that has been moved to a new location.

.

I have never noticed that being a problem or the reason smart meters were installed. We have reported suspicious houses for over 20 years now, especially if the usage has went way up or is proportionally off.

Actually law enforcement has been hampered with the use of smart meters. Now there isn't someone going to the house monthly to notice suspicious activity. This can be a problem with illegally connected seperate systems. A high usage bill may not trigger any flags unless someone calls in, or law enforcement supeonas the bills. We just had our grow house, meth trash class a couple of weeks ago. The Sheriff's office has their officers come in to show us and explain to us what to be on the lookout for and what to report.


One advantage to our system, when someone calls in to report an outage, we can ping the meter to see if the power is really out. If we show voltage at the meter, we will tell them how to reset their breakers or tell them to call an electrician. Of course, this has cut down on my easy overtime. ( I never said it was an advantage for me....)

 

[hbiss]

I've participated in threads about "smart meters" on boards as diverse as landscapers. The hysteria and BS is unbelievable. Some think that they will have to put aluminum foil over the meters so they won't be exposed to the radiation. Then there are those who think the utility company can use it to turn off or brown out their house if they use too much power.


I think the industry made a big mistake calling these "smart meters" because that elicits all kinds of thoughts to people with fertile imaginations. They should have just have called them remote readable meters to eliminate costly manual reading by meter readers to save you money.


-Hal

 

[Hv&Lv]

I've participated in threads about "smart meters" on boards as diverse as landscapers. The hysteria and BS is unbelievable. Some think that they will have to put aluminum foil over the meters so they won't be exposed to the radiation. Then there are those who think the utility company can use it to turn off or brown out their house if they use too much power.


I think the industry made a big mistake calling these "smart meters" because that elicits all kinds of thoughts to people with fertile imaginations. They should have just have called them remote readable meters to eliminate costly manual reading by meter readers to save you money.


-Hal

That has got to be the best definition of these meters I have read so far. :thumbsup:

 

[don_resqcapt19]

... I'm constanly trying to quell rumors of doom and gloom. I've had to explain to friends and family that the utility won't be able to tell when you turn on specific appliances like what's been spread by the local anti smart meter consortium. ...

Not yet, but that is a goal of the system. It would not be without the rate payers consent. You would agree to let the utility have some control of your electrical usage in exchange for lower rates.
As part of demand response some appliance manufacturers were working on appliances that would reduce their engry usage when the grid freuency dropped. This would let the grid frequency recover quicker and in extreme cases could prevent blackouts.

CenterPoint Energy can read, connect, and disconnect smart electric meters remotely without your having to purchase any additional equipment. In the future, you will be able to create a Home Area Network which "talks" to the smart meter so you can remotely monitor and control up to five ZigBee-compatible devices, such as smart thermostats and appliances. There will also be devices that can be connected to existing appliances allowing you to control these appliances, such as devices plugged into wall outlets for connecting and monitoring usage of window air conditioning units.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Not yet, but that is a goal of the system. It would not be without the rate payers consent. You would agree to let the utility have some control of your electrical usage in exchange for lower rates.
As part of demand response some appliance manufacturers were working on appliances that would reduce their engry usage when the grid freuency dropped. This would let the grid frequency recover quicker and in extreme cases could prevent blackouts.

those new smart meters are capable of turning off completely. They have large solid state Relays. A customer of mine won the contract to supply those relays for Iltron.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

... Then there are those who think the utility company can use it to turn off or brown out their house if they use too much power. ...

They can't brown out your power, but some do have contactors and the utility has the ability to control them remotely.

With smart meters, CenterPoint Energy is proposing to add a process prior to shutting down whole circuits to conduct a mass turn off of individual meters with 200 amps or less (i.e. residential and small commercial consumers) for 15 or 30 minutes, rotating consumers impacted during that outage as well as possible future outages.

 

[kwired]

those new smart meters are capable of turning off completely. They have large solid state Relays. A customer of mine won the contract to supply those relays for Iltron.

They are likely used for disconnect/reconnect for non payment of the bill, can be disconnected/reconnected from the office by the accounting people instead of sending a technician out.

There have been load management devices in past by some POCO. In residential and light commercial I have seen radio controlled relays that they connect to turn off air conditioning equipment as well as electric water heaters. During a peak demand period you can turn off several of these items for short time and then rotate to another group for a short time and lessen the load on the distribution system.

More common around here is radio controls for farmers irrigation wells. This is a major load in this area in June - August. You can get a lower energy rate contract by allowing them to remotely turn your well off when they find it necessary. They have several rates and times they may turn you off so you need to decide how important it is to be on vs how good of a rate you may get. There are some guys that don't want to be shut off at all and do pay higher rates, although they are still cheaper or at least competetive with using diesel or propane to pump with. If you have a ten hour contract that means you will not be shut off for more than 10 hours a day. It does not mean you will be shut off 10 hours, just that it can be up to 10 hours. They only shut off load when demand calls for it.

 

[Hv&Lv]

They are likely used for disconnect/reconnect for non payment of the bill, can be disconnected/reconnected from the office by the accounting people instead of sending a technician out.

There have been load management devices in past by some POCO. In residential and light commercial I have seen radio controlled relays that they connect to turn off air conditioning equipment as well as electric water heaters. During a peak demand period you can turn off several of these items for short time and then rotate to another group for a short time and lessen the load on the distribution system.

More common around here is radio controls for farmers irrigation wells. This is a major load in this area in June - August. You can get a lower energy rate contract by allowing them to remotely turn your well off when they find it necessary. They have several rates and times they may turn you off so you need to decide how important it is to be on vs how good of a rate you may get. There are some guys that don't want to be shut off at all and do pay higher rates, although they are still cheaper or at least competetive with using diesel or propane to pump with. If you have a ten hour contract that means you will not be shut off for more than 10 hours a day. It does not mean you will be shut off 10 hours, just that it can be up to 10 hours. They only shut off load when demand calls for it.

This is what we use, mainly for problem accounts.(those on cutoff every month)http://www.aclaratech.com/AclaraPLS/specsheets/DSI.pdf

those new smart meters are capable of turning off completely. They have large solid state Relays. A customer of mine won the contract to supply those relays for Iltron.

As for the modules, they are costly, why would anyone want to put them in every meter if they will never be used? I guess I could see using them for load control, if you wanted to disconnect the whole house, but why scrap the load shedding system in place to install one that is much higher? Besides, the load control radio devices can control individual appliances. Smart meters cannot.

here is something we install in the winter on delinquent accounts. At least the people won't freeze to death...http://www.brooksutility.com/catalog/product-detail.asp?ID=509

 

[Rampage_Rick]

those new smart meters are capable of turning off completely. They have large solid state Relays. A customer of mine won the contract to supply those relays for Iltron.

Oh I know they can turn off your entire house. Our meters are Itron C2SOD with remote disconnect. There's a black button on the face of the meter to allow the customer to turn power back on. I'm not sure of the exact function, whether it only turns the power on for 30 minutes, or only one phase, or ??? I had a chat with one of the installers who said that when they swap red-tagged meters they just transfer the plastic booties on the load lugs from the old meter to the new one.

I also know that the utility would be able to influence appliances that contain a Zigbee HAN module. As far as I know the homeowner still has veto control. In other words, the utility can turn off your central A/C during a high-demand period, but you can override if yo really want to. You're still required to actually purchase appliances that are HAN-compatible. It's not like they can arbitrarily switch off your bedroom TV from the head office like some of these nuts would have you believe (in addition to the head office knowing what channel you're watching due to the "electric signature" of your TV)

The hysteria and BS is unbelievable. Some think that they will have to put aluminum foil over the meters so they won't be exposed to the radiation. Then there are those who think the utility company can use it to turn off or brown out their house if they use too much power.

I lurk on a facebook group and only pipe up when I see egregious BS, of which there has been a truckload. Granted, there are valid concerns which I share, such as the implementation of time-of-use billing and the questionable training of the meter installers. (Here they're using temporary workers, not journeymen)

In addition to the aforementioned smart meter fires, I've also commented on the purported smart meter "hacking" in Germany. The meter in question was hard wired and communicated (without encryption) over the customer's DSL. The researchers never hacked the meter itself, rather they hacked the website where the meter sent its data, and then programmed a laptop to pretend to be a meter and send bogus data. Oh and the meter in question isn't owned by the utility, rather it's voluntarily installed by the customer to track their consumption and help choose the best utilty according to their usage... All the nuts hear is "smart meter hacked" and they start thinking some teenager will magically glean their address and credit card number out of the air and buy a Porche on eBay.

Once I respond to a BS post there will be some attempt at a rebuttal, after which I'll respond with even more evidence, and then they'll usually shut up on the subject. There's some semblance of maturity, as they are leaving my comments up for all to read, rather than simply deleting them and burying their head in the sand. The group seems to be turning into a pissing constest about who can secure their old meter in the most extreme manner possible. It started off with small padlocks, moved up to plywood and hand-crafted wooden boxes, and has now reached TIG-welding the meter in place

 

[don_resqcapt19]

As far as hacking, if it communicates, it can be hacked. Will it be? not likely as there is no real reason to hack the data from a meter, but there sure is to hack the utility control systems.
The only unhackable computer is a completely stand along one with no wireless or hard wired communication connections, and even then it may be possible to get data out of it remotely.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Oh I know they can turn off your entire house. Our meters are Itron C2SOD with remote disconnect. There's a black button on the face of the meter to allow the customer to turn power back on. I'm not sure of the exact function, whether it only turns the power on for 30 minutes, or only one phase, or ??? I had a chat with one of the installers who said that when they swap red-tagged meters they just transfer the plastic booties on the load lugs from the old meter to the new one.

The black button on the face of an ITron C2SOD is to control the display function. (The "D" is for demand, the "T" on other models is for time of use, and the "L" is for demand and time of use.)There is a remote disconnect built within CERTAIN models(it is an option) that will either limit power, or shut off completely. It is costly and useless for most applications. It is only for deliquent customers. (maybe for load control, but that has been discussed earlier) Many opt fot=r a collar on "Red tagged" meters, like the one here:http://www.aclaratech.com/AclaraPLS/specsheets/DSI.pdf there is also another model that will limit power:http://www.brooksutility.com/catalog/product-detail.asp?ID=509 These units are much cheaper and can be moved around as necessary for problem accounts.

 

[Hv&Lv]

As far as hacking, if it communicates, it can be hacked. Will it be? not likely as there is no real reason to hack the data from a meter, but there sure is to hack the utility control systems.
The only unhackable computer is a completely stand along one with no wireless or hard wired communication connections, and even then it may be possible to get data out of it remotely.

Here is a system that we use. It uses power line communications:http://www.aclaratech.com/AclaraPLS/specsheets/TWACS-UMT-R.pdf
I have no idea why someone would want to hack into a meter reading, or even into the computer where the readings are stored. Our readings are collected every night, (to make sure all are reading, and everyone has power), and exported to billing monthly. The readings never quite make it to the mainframe without being manually imported...