Fine stranded wire with into mechanical lug ( screw type) ..UL test ?

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AKUMAR

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when we need to use fine flexible stranded type wire with ferrule into mechanical lug.
Mechanical lug is UL tested with class B or C type wire but with fine wire it is not .
so what UL tests we required to use with fine stranded wire ? or no more tests required with ferrule ?

Thanks
 
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AKUMAR

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Location
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I do have so many articles but I am looking for clarity what exactly we need to do if we are using ferrule with fine wire before inserting into mechanical lug.
is crimping enough or need to do UL tests ?
 
Jraef

Jraef

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AKUMAR said:
I do have so many articles but I am looking for clarity what exactly we need to do if we are using ferrule with fine wire before inserting into mechanical lug.
is crimping enough or need to do UL tests ?
Click to expand...
So when you say you want to know what UL tests are needed, are you the lug mfr? Because that is who any UL tests would be practically applicable to. If you are a user, trying to get a lug through UL would cost you way more than just using a compression lug or not using fine stranded wire..last I heard, the cost to put a single line item through the UL listing process is around $50K. You will have to need to sell a LOT of lugs to amortize that expense.

If you are a penel shop, your listing process does not involve getting individual components listed that are not already listed for a specific purpose. You are only allowed to ASSEMBLE listed components. So if you can find a mechanical lug that is already listed for use with fine stranded wire and a ferrule, that's ok. You didn't specify what size wire you are revering to, but if it is anything other than control wire, I don't think you will find it.
 
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AKUMAR

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Location
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I need to use it in a panel and size can be upto 4/0 ..and we need to mount upto 4 wire together into single lug.
I could not able to find such tyep of mechanical lug that is listed for fine stranded wire .
so option looks like to have ferrule that raised the first question again.

Jraef said:
So when you say you want to know what UL tests are needed, are you the lug mfr? Because that is who any UL tests would be practically applicable to. If you are a user, trying to get a lug through UL would cost you way more than just using a compression lug or not using fine stranded wire..last I heard, the cost to put a single line item through the UL listing process is around $50K. You will have to need to sell a LOT of lugs to amortize that expense.

If you are a penel shop, your listing process does not involve getting individual components listed that are not already listed for a specific purpose. You are only allowed to ASSEMBLE listed components. So if you can find a mechanical lug that is already listed for use with fine stranded wire and a ferrule, that's ok. You didn't specify what size wire you are revering to, but if it is anything other than control wire, I don't think you will find it.
Click to expand...
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

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I don't see anything in the Burndy link that says you can use the ferrule to terminate fine stranded wire in a connector that is not listed for fine stranded wire.
 
renosteinke

renosteinke

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One's not likely to find anything in the Leviton catalog saying you can put plugs into their receptacles.

To address the OP's question: UL has a simple pull-out test for such things. IIRC, a 35-lb weight is attached to the wire and they watch to see if the wire starts coming out of the connection.

That's the problem with fine wire; it will slip out when a larger stranding will not. A similar failure happens when Romex is put into an ordinary cap or plug (though a different weight is used). It's also why the most common method to deal with fine stranding is to have a longer connection area.
 
Twoskinsoneman

Twoskinsoneman

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don_resqcapt19 said:
I don't see anything in the Burndy link that says you can use the ferrule to terminate fine stranded wire in a connector that is not listed for fine stranded wire.
Click to expand...

Don I understand were you coming from but I don't see it the same way. The way I look at it is similar to a lug that is identified for fine stranded wire. The device your bolting the lug to may not be identified for fine stranded wire but the lug you're crimping the fine stranded wire to is.
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

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Twoskinsoneman said:
Don I understand were you coming from but I don't see it the same way. The way I look at it is similar to a lug that is identified for fine stranded wire. The device your bolting the lug to may not be identified for fine stranded wire but the lug you're crimping the fine stranded wire to is.
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You would have to look to the listing of the products. If the combination of the fine strand conductor, the ferrule and the lug are listed to be used together, fine, but if not you are not using the parts within their listing.
 
Jraef

Jraef

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Twoskinsoneman said:
Don I understand were you coming from but I don't see it the same way. The way I look at it is similar to a lug that is identified for fine stranded wire. The device your bolting the lug to may not be identified for fine stranded wire but the lug you're crimping the fine stranded wire to is.
Click to expand...
But he is not referring to a crimped lug, he said a MECHANICAL lug, and I think Don's point is that the mechanical lug listing makes no allowance for use with a crimp ferrule as a way around the restriction against using it with fine stranded wire. I agree, I don't see it either. UL, and local inspectors by the way, will want to see a specific listing that allows for this.

AKUMAR, is there some reason why you cannot just use a crimped lug? That's the way everyone else does it and if you use the correct lug and crimper, it will be a UL recognized method of terminating fine stranded wire. If you need to attach multiple cables, use bolt or stud terminals.

PS:
Actually, strike that part about local inspectors, they would not actually be involved because the Code does not allow the use of fine stranded cable like that at all! You can use it inside of a UL listed panel assembly and only in the manner accepted by UL, which as far as I know is only crimped lugs.

Read this for why.
http://www.iaei.org/magazine/2005/01/do-you-know-where-your-cables-are-tonight/
 
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don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

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Jraef said:
....
PS: Actually, strike that part about local inspectors, they would not actually be involved because the Code does not allow the use of fine stranded cable like that at all! You can use it inside of a UL listed panel assembly and only in the manner accepted by UL, which as far as I know is only crimped lugs. ...
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The code does not prohibit the use of fine strand conductors. I have used dual rated DLO a number of times. To be code compliant it has to be listed as one of the wire types that was in T310.13 (moved to a new section for 2011). The Article 400 cables are also fine stranded conductors.
One issuse is that even with compression connectors they have to be listed for use with fine stranded cables. Many are not so listed.
 
Jraef

Jraef

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don_resqcapt19 said:
The code does not prohibit the use of fine strand conductors. I have used dual rated DLO a number of times. To be code compliant it has to be listed as one of the wire types that was in T310.13 (moved to a new section for 2011). The Article 400 cables are also fine stranded conductors.
One issuse is that even with compression connectors they have to be listed for use with fine stranded cables. Many are not so listed.
Click to expand...
Sorry, you're right, I just get tired of seeing people using DLO or Welding cable for other uses thinking it's fine, I forget that there are other types of fine stranded cable. I also hadn't noticed that a number of mfrs are dual rating their DLO now as RHH/RHHW.
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

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Jraef said:
Sorry, you're right, I just get tired of seeing people using DLO or Welding cable for other uses thinking it's fine, I forget that there are other types of fine stranded cable. I also hadn't noticed that a number of mfrs are dual rating their DLO now as RHH/RHHW.
Click to expand...
At least one manufacturer of welding cable has done the same.
 
Twoskinsoneman

Twoskinsoneman

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Jraef said:
But he is not referring to a crimped lug, he said a MECHANICAL lug, and I think Don's point is that the mechanical lug listing makes no allowance for use with a crimp ferrule as a way around the restriction against using it with fine stranded wire. I agree, I don't see it either. UL, and local inspectors by the way, will want to see a specific listing that allows for this.
Click to expand...

For now I will just have to pleasantly disagree. Let me ask you this, would you fail an install where a wire too large for a CB (larger than it's wire size rating) was installed with a pin adapter due to VD?

I feel like since this ferrule is basically a separate crimp termination by itself and rated for fine stranded wire it is fine. I mean the strands of the wire aren't even in contact with the mechanical lug why should it matter what they are.

But I understand the growing idea that nothing is allowed unless it is spelled out extremely specifically in the White Book... It would be nice if that were always the case but in situations like this I employ a little common sense. No offense to those who disagree.
 
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