Lady Engineer
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- New Jersey
I've never used or spec'd one, but I was hoping someone could tell me if it's worth the money to use these with panels that power sensitive equipment.
Power Conditioning Transformers
- Thread starter Lady Engineer
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- New York, 40.7514,-73.9925
Do you have a sample model. The term is too broad.
Lady Engineer
Senior Member
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- New Jersey
Have you heard of them? I have, but never used one.
Here's a good one...Onyx Energy, called the Energy Guard. I just want to know if they are worth the money in general.
Here's a good one...Onyx Energy, called the Energy Guard. I just want to know if they are worth the money in general.
Speedskater
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- Cleveland, Ohio
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- retired broadcast, audio and industrial R&D engineering
Or are you thinking of Sola ferro-resonant transformers?
http://www.solahevidutysales.com/power_conditioning.htm
http://www.solahevidutysales.com/power_conditioning.htm
Lady Engineer
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- New Jersey
Wait, I just read this again. I'm just asking if anyone has ever spec'd or installed one. I haven't, just went to a seminar describing what they do. Now the client's rep wants to install one for the control at our water treatment plant. I told them it's not really necessary, because if need be we will install a UPS, plus the panel can have TVSS. They don't come that large, from what I see, but I would need at least 30KVA.
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Lady Engineer
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T
T.M.Haja Sahib
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But the product mentioned in post #4 is entirely from the above.Yours is an isolation transformer product.In post # 4 is a CVT product.
Lady Engineer
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- New Jersey
Yes, I saw that. I didn't read it carefully, before I said yes. I can see no one has probably used one here. I was thinking of the ILC or Onyx, like I posted before.
If you know this product is worth it, please tell me, if not I will just ask around to some of my other fellow engineers.
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- Location
- Wisconsin
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- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
There used to be many different manufacturers of these products.
Although, my experience is that most of time these are not needed, each application needs to be evaluated independently, I would need more information about your system before I passed judgement.
With advances in switched mode power supplies and UPS technology and pricing, I do not see them being specified as much as i used to.
Although, my experience is that most of time these are not needed, each application needs to be evaluated independently, I would need more information about your system before I passed judgement.
With advances in switched mode power supplies and UPS technology and pricing, I do not see them being specified as much as i used to.
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T.M.Haja Sahib
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Here is a third category of power conditioner which compensates for voltage fluctuation,provides sine wave output but can not manage large voltage related power surges:
http://www.eetarp.com.sg/vectek_new.html
All these products,unlike an UPS, can not function during a power shut down.
I have specified and used some power conditioners before - typically Controlled Power Co. in Troy, MI. I agree with Jim that in many cases the regulation function is not required since most utilization equipment is compliant with the ITI Curve and isn't as sensitive as it was in the past. In the process industries many folks use these power conditioners as the bypass power source for UPS systems. The UPS generally transfers to bypass if the power electronics lack the short circuit current capability to clear a fault or after the batteries have discharged completely. The power conditioner will limit the magnitude of voltage transients coming from the upstream power source and raise brownout-level voltages of 75-85% of nominal up to nominal voltage on the output. A simple shielded isolation transformer is a completely passive component that will provide similar transient protection capability. The regulation feature of raising brownout level voltage up to nominal voltage is not needed in many applications because the upstream power system is unlikely to deliver those intermediate voltages.
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- San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
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- Electrical Engineer
The Onyx POWER (not Energy) unit appears to just be an isolation transformer. But they make you sign up as a customer before they let you download information, that always makes me suspicious, like they have something to hide or are trying to make money selling your email address. I refused, so I don't know what it is. But here is the brief description:
The other one from TSI Power is much more legitimate:
99% of PLC control systems now use Switch Mode Power Supplies (SMPS) as their power source, and the SMPS units will include the line filtering and surge protection. It's OK to add more, but may be unnecessary in most cases. In the "olden days" when they all had linear power supplies, you did have to use power conditioners ahead of them. Not so much any more. Marketing depts for power conditioner companies seem to have not been interested in losing that potential market though, so they still mention it in their literature.
Bottom line if you have equipment that you KNOW is very sensitive to voltage flucutations and spikes, a power conditioner is not a bad idea. For a Water Treatment Plant control system however it seems a bit of over kill in my opinion. But we don't know what your control system is. If it is an old DCS system, might not be a bad idea. Modern PLC based SCADA system? Kind of redundant. If you need a UPS, that's another matter, but if so, then 99% of UPS systems will have this included anyway.
Pretty bland. However on the same page they are hawking this:
That is very "scammish" in my opinion, they appear to be promoting this as an energy saving device. That would make it a scam.
The other one from TSI Power is much more legitimate:
It's basically a shielded isolation transformer and TVSS all in one, but it is only 15kVA. That would be something you would install on an office complex with a data server, something like that. I wouldn't bother with it for "controls".
99% of PLC control systems now use Switch Mode Power Supplies (SMPS) as their power source, and the SMPS units will include the line filtering and surge protection. It's OK to add more, but may be unnecessary in most cases. In the "olden days" when they all had linear power supplies, you did have to use power conditioners ahead of them. Not so much any more. Marketing depts for power conditioner companies seem to have not been interested in losing that potential market though, so they still mention it in their literature.
Bottom line if you have equipment that you KNOW is very sensitive to voltage flucutations and spikes, a power conditioner is not a bad idea. For a Water Treatment Plant control system however it seems a bit of over kill in my opinion. But we don't know what your control system is. If it is an old DCS system, might not be a bad idea. Modern PLC based SCADA system? Kind of redundant. If you need a UPS, that's another matter, but if so, then 99% of UPS systems will have this included anyway.
Lady Engineer
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
Nice, very good assessment. I told the facility engineer, that he only needs the UPS for clean power. He's hell bent on this conditioning transformer, and I for one will not approve this. I'm the consultant to a Civil Engineering firm, and it's my duty to give the firm my recommendations for the job. However, I'd heard of the conditioning XFMRs, but never actually spec'd one. I just didn't see the need, but if he wasn't going to let it rest, I figured I'd at least see what others thought of it.
Thanks again for your response. This is all I was really looking for.
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T.M.Haja Sahib
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A UPS may be fed from a power conditioner to enhance the battery life.Of course,its cost effectiveness may be checked with the claiming company.See page no.8 of
http://www.eetarp.com.sg/download/psp_brochurelr.pdf
If found cost effective,I hope you may convince the facility engineer to adopt such a configuration.
hurk27
Senior Member
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- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
I don't see any UL listing for the TSI, other problems I see with the TSI is no bond from the primary to secondary grounding as it leads me to believe???, but the one thing that might be a problem is a 208 system is 120 volts to ground, this system is 208 volts to ground, some NEC installations might be affected.
I have installed isolation transformers before, but nothing this large, here at home I have three triplet 1200 watt units that have the filtering, TVSS, and voltage regulation from 50 volts to 250 volts that will provide 120 volts even through a brown out, I picked them up on an IT job that they were changing to UPS and was going to throw them away, had them for a few years, but like Jim, don't see as much of a need for them any more.
I have installed isolation transformers before, but nothing this large, here at home I have three triplet 1200 watt units that have the filtering, TVSS, and voltage regulation from 50 volts to 250 volts that will provide 120 volts even through a brown out, I picked them up on an IT job that they were changing to UPS and was going to throw them away, had them for a few years, but like Jim, don't see as much of a need for them any more.
zbang
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- Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
I don't see how this is possible. The one of the purposes of a UPS is to take cruddy power and deliver clean. The batteries aren't involved unless there isn't enough energy coming in to make the energy going out (+overhead). Are you/they suggesting that by removing momentary draws on the batteries the life is improved measurable? How much?
This doesn't pass the sniff test here. Can someone else explain?
I had the same thoughts.
T
T.M.Haja Sahib
Guest
Suspend your judgement .I have sent a e-mail to that company through
http://www.vektek.com/ContactUs.aspx
Let them explain themselves.
You made the claim.
Why don't you support it yourself?
T
T.M.Haja Sahib
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Won't it lead to any trolling in your presence?..................:lol:
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