Submersible water-well pumps

[jbtxlake]

I live on a lake and some of my neighbors are using submersible water-well pumps for irrigation. These are in the water close to my dock. I'm trying to find someone who has done a voltage gradient study for lake water. I would like to come up with how far away my dock needs to be from this pump in case it faults to case ground and the breaker doesn't take it out. In other words someone is swimming and they come in contact with the gradient field and my grounded dock. I won't to make sure I'm clear of the field.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Are the pumps installed with gfci protection?

 

[ptonsparky]

I would think that a sudden solid case ground fault would be less likely than a gradual degration of the motor or feeder insulation. A lot of things will come into play along with voltage drop, operating voltage, overcurrent and short circuit protection. General health and age of the swimmers, as well. I don't know if you are going to find someone that will actually come out and say that 100' is safe. A quarter mile may not be safe.

Hint: Refer to previous post.

 

[jbtxlake]

Are the pumps installed with gfci protection?

They are not and some folks do not want them.

 

[jbtxlake]

I would think that a sudden solid case ground fault would be less likely than a gradual degration of the motor or feeder insulation. A lot of things will come into play along with voltage drop, operating voltage, overcurrent and short circuit protection. General health and age of the swimmers, as well. I don't know if you are going to find someone that will actually come out and say that 100' is safe. A quarter mile may not be safe.

Hint: Refer to previous post.

These pumps are installed laying on their side and it's not unuasual for one to fail. I have found there is general concensus that a gradient of 2 volts per foot is a safe distance.

 

[kwired]

Why can't they use a jet pump, all they need in the lake is piping. Submersibles are not necessary if not lifting the water very far, next to the lake I doubt there is much lift required.

These neighbors would never forgive themselves if someone were electrocuted over this.

 

[Cow]

These neighbors would never forgive themselves if someone were electrocuted over this.

You have to remember though, common sense isn't common anymore. Most people are REACTIVE, rather than PROACTIVE. They'll usually wait for something bad to happen before showing any initiative.

 

[ptonsparky]

These pumps are installed laying on their side and it's not unuasual for one to fail. I have found there is general concensus that a gradient of 2 volts per foot is a safe distance.

Do you have a reference for this consensus?

Submersibles generally are not designed to lay on their sides. Franklin has warnings. Causes premature bearing failure with the windings being destroyed. Hmmm. Sounds like they need ground fault protection or at least be installed properly.

Where are the well/pump guys?

 

[kwired]

Where are the well/pump guys?

All the ones I know certainly are not going to be lurking around this site, they already know everything there is to know about wiring:happyyes:

 

[hurk27]

The gradient of two volts per foot is a number someone pulled out of thin air, as it doesn't work like this, an energized pump or other metal that is in contact with the water will have what is called shells around it, and depending upon the conductivity of the water these shells can be small or larger, the better conductivity of the water will have a smaller shell but will drop voltage across the shell at a much higher rate, it is this rate that will determine how much voltage a person will receive across their body when they enter a shell.

But here is the problem, there are so many variables to how far a person might have to be to be safe it is almost impossible to give a figure anyone could guarantee, or would they want too.

It only takes one volt to keep a swimmer from moving when immersed in water, and may not allow him/her to get out of the water, a person can feel as low as .3 volts while immersed in water, so to say a person is safe by being XX amount of feet from an energized metal source is setting them up for a very bad liability issue if someone is injured or killed.

While a GFCI can remove the power if any current leakage happens from the hot, it will not remove the risk if there is a voltage drop in the grounding being imposed to the motor housing, if the service from which the motor is fed has a neutral voltage drop or the utility grounding neutral, this voltage drop will exist on what ever is grounded to it, again a GFCI will not protect from this.

So my best judgment would be to say that if there is electrically energized equipment in or around water I would not allow any swimming unless the equipment has been disconnected including the EGC, which is the only way I would feel that the water would be safe to swim in.

 

[jbtxlake]

Do you have a reference for this consensus?

My reference came from articles written about hazards around marinas. One comes from highport.com called Word To The Wise Electrical Hazards under swimmers beware ( I'm not sure of the date) and the other is 2007 articles 598, 580. from the forum .

Submersibles generally are not designed to lay on their sides. Franklin has warnings. Causes premature bearing failure with the windings being destroyed. Hmmm. Sounds like they need ground fault protection or at least be installed properly.



Where are the well/pump guys?

Good question

 

[jbtxlake]

The gradient of two volts per foot is a number someone pulled out of thin air, as it doesn't work like this, an energized pump or other metal that is in contact with the water will have what is called shells around it, and depending upon the conductivity of the water these shells can be small or larger, the better conductivity of the water will have a smaller shell but will drop voltage across the shell at a much higher rate, it is this rate that will determine how much voltage a person will receive across their body when they enter a shell.

This number came from highport.com an article called Word to the Wise Electrical Hazards under Swimmers Beware and articles 598 and 580 from the forum. I do not know how the authors of the articles came up with this.

But here is the problem, there are so many variables to how far a person might have to be to be safe it is almost impossible to give a figure anyone could guarantee, or would they want too.

It only takes one volt to keep a swimmer from moving when immersed in water, and may not allow him/her to get out of the water, a person can feel as low as .3 volts while immersed in water, so to say a person is safe by being XX amount of feet from an energized metal source is setting them up for a very bad liability issue if someone is injured or killed.

You are correct I see no way to have an absolute number either, but I thought there might be some general concensus that if you 200 feet or 600 feet you are out of the danger zone.

While a GFCI can remove the power if any current leakage happens from the hot, it will not remove the risk if there is a voltage drop in the grounding being imposed to the motor housing, if the service from which the motor is fed has a neutral voltage drop or the utility grounding neutral, this voltage drop will exist on what ever is grounded to it, again a GFCI will not protect from this.

So my best judgment would be to say that if there is electrically energized equipment in or around water I would not allow any swimming unless the equipment has been disconnected including the EGC, which is the only way I would feel that the water would be safe to swim in.

Thanks

 

[stickboy1375]

All the ones I know certainly are not going to be lurking around this site, they already know everything there is to know about wiring:happyyes:

Bwahh, You're not kidding with that statement... I love how they think they are empowered to wire anything they install.

 

[socalelect]

Bwahh, You're not kidding with that statement... I love how they think they are empowered to wire anything they install.

i know a couple pump guys that do extremly clean and LEGAL elec work for there installs but yea i agree they are few and far between , i bought a house and they had used zip (lamp) cord in nm flex for the tank float and the pressure switch there plumbing was even worse and i would like to find the inspector that signed off on the whole thing and slap him they ran pvc where galvo was required by code and painted it gray so it looked galvo from a distance , had the inspecter actually inspected it he would of caught that

 

[stickboy1375]

i know a couple pump guys that do extremly clean and LEGAL elec work for there installs but yea i agree they are few and far between , i bought a house and they had used zip (lamp) cord in nm flex for the tank float and the pressure switch there plumbing was even worse and i would like to find the inspector that signed off on the whole thing and slap him they ran pvc where galvo was required by code and painted it gray so it looked galvo from a distance , had the inspecter actually inspected it he would of caught that

Every well pump ive ever seen wired by a well company has the well pump wire run inside of black plastic water pipe, and once inside the home, the wires run exposed to the well pump control box... Im guessing inspectors find that "OK"

 

[kwired]

Every well pump ive ever seen wired by a well company has the well pump wire run inside of black plastic water pipe, and once inside the home, the wires run exposed to the well pump control box... Im guessing inspectors find that "OK"

Who says it is getting inspected?

The well, and plumbing may get inspected by someone that does not inspect electrical.

I would sure hope if someone is inspecting electrical that this is "not OK"

 

[stickboy1375]

Who says it is getting inspected?

The well, and plumbing may get inspected by someone that does not inspect electrical.

I would sure hope if someone is inspecting electrical that this is "not OK"

i've seen this method in brand new houses and old... someone thinks its ok.... and we only have "ONE" inspector for all trades out this way.

 

[hurk27]

I've seen this method in brand new houses and old... someone thinks its ok.... and we only have "ONE" inspector for all trades out this way.

Same thing around here in some locations, and they know which jurisdictions they can get away with it, but I do try to put a junction box at the point it enters the basement or crawl space and use a chapter 3 wiring method to the buddy tank PS, so at least it looks somewhat professional.

The problem is if it gets tagged then I have to pay for the re-inspect not them, but I bounce it back to the GC and let him go after them to get his money back.

 

[stickboy1375]

Same thing around here in some locations, and they know which jurisdictions they can get away with it, but I do try to put a junction box at the point it enters the basement or crawl space and use a chapter 3 wiring method to the buddy tank PS, so at least it looks somewhat professional.

I hear you, if they just leave the well pump wire in the basement I'll sleeve it in carflex to the control box...

 

[kwired]

I end up redoing their work also if they leave it that way, and many do. I don't wait for the electrical inspector to condemn it, as I know that will happen, and when it does I get the correction notice and have to pay the reinspection fee.

I try to make arrangements with the well guy to either be there at the right time or at least let them know where I would like them to stop and let me continue.