gas pipes and panel guts question

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mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
I went to a house today to look at a service panel that has signs of water infiltration. Water has leaked down to the panel in the basement through the SE cable. I'm going to seal the cable entry fitting so it quits leaking and change the panel guts. The panel is a Square D QOC20U100 (100 amp MCB with 20 spaces).

Anybody know if I can buy that panel still? If I can I will remove the guts and throw the can away. It will save me alot of work over changing the entire panel.

Also there is a gas service pipe that comes into the home a few inches above the panel. It even branches out right above the panel to feed the gas appliances. Seems like they could have picked a better place to have all this, but moving it now would be a big deal. The question is, could this be grandfathered? The house is probably about 75 years old.

Mike
 
Buck Parrish

Buck Parrish

Senior Member
Location
NC & IN
That Square D panel is probably not made any more. Throw it out and install a new 200 amp service. Charge accordingly.
As far as the gas pipe. A violation that was a violation when it was installed, would not be "grandfathered". You should check with your local AHJ.
 
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mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Buck Parrish said:
That Square D panel is probably not made any more. Throw it out and install a new 200 amp service. Charge accordingly.
As far as the gas pipe. A violation that was a violation when it was installed, would not be "grandfathered". You should check with your local AHJ.
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Thanks for response. The service is plenty big. It's a small house with no heavy loads. It's also for sale and unlikely the owner will pay for more than the minimum repair. I'm there because a home inspector discovered the water damage (which right now is minimal). If I can't get the AHJ to OK the gas line it's gonna cost them big to move those pipes.
 
R

robertd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
electrical contractor
I think the part number you list is the cover, not the panel. If you google QOC20U100 the first hit is:

http://www.squared.com/us/products/gendoc.nsf/bce2f96988bd1a338625643a006e3b29/32c922ae0df4918d85256f6c005e8b6c/$FILE/0100EP0702.pdf

That lists QOC20U100 as the front cover for two 100 Amp panels, with 16 and 20 spaces.
I think you might want QO120M100, 100 amp 20 space 20 circuit panel.

Google QO120M100 and you get 2500+ hits. Looks like you can still get the panel, if it's the one you need.

Hope this helps.
Robert.
 
M

mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
robertd said:
I think the part number you list is the cover, not the panel. If you google QOC20U100 the first hit is:

http://www.squared.com/us/products/gendoc.nsf/bce2f96988bd1a338625643a006e3b29/32c922ae0df4918d85256f6c005e8b6c/$FILE/0100EP0702.pdf

That lists QOC20U100 as the front cover for two 100 Amp panels, with 16 and 20 spaces.
I think you might want QO120M100, 100 amp 20 space 20 circuit panel.

Google QO120M100 and you get 2500+ hits. Looks like you can still get the panel, if it's the one you need.

Hope this helps.
Robert.
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Very helpful, thanks
 
M

mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
electricmanscott said:
Rule three. Learn it use it. :smile:
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I find our Mass Code Rule 3 confusing. In this case, how do repairs to an existing service fall under rule 3 which applies to additions and modifications? I'm making repairs. Clear as mud to me. I wish there were a hand book for the Mass code.

I'd post Rule 3 if I knew how.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
mkgrady said:
I'd post Rule 3 if I knew how.
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Rule3-4.jpg
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
It is my opinion rule 3 clearly allows you to replace the panel, you will not be increasing the magnitude of the violation.
 
C

cpal

Senior Member
Location
MA
NFPA 54 requires 24" ( I think) spacing for gas meters from a source of ignition ( not the exact words), a gas pipe is not a meter but check out 110.26(F) for dedicated space that might be an issue with the AHJ, and thenm again it might not!
 
C

cpal

Senior Member
Location
MA
electricmanscott said:
Hey Charlie, suppose it happened to be you inspecting this work. What would your thoughts be?
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thats not fair
:)


I agree with Bob (in general), if it does not increase the violation then rule 3 is in effect,. We have said that more than once, but that is not always a black and white situation.

We need to do something with Rule 3.
 
electricmanscott

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
To me what rule three does fairly well is allow common sense and judgement to be used. There are many guys here that immediately jump right to the letter of the code without giving much thought to it. I like to think we are smart enough to make a judgement call based on our experience, knowledge and understanding of our trade.

In the case of the original post it would be senseless to have the owner bear the cost of relocating the panel. Sometimes "it's been that way forever" is a good indicator that while it may not meet the letter of the law, in reality it is fine.
 
M

mkgrady

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
electricmanscott said:
To me what rule three does fairly well is allow common sense and judgement to be used. There are many guys here that immediately jump right to the letter of the code without giving much thought to it. I like to think we are smart enough to make a judgement call based on our experience, knowledge and understanding of our trade.

In the case of the original post it would be senseless to have the owner bear the cost of relocating the panel. Sometimes "it's been that way forever" is a good indicator that while it may not meet the letter of the law, in reality it is fine.
Click to expand...


Well said
 
M

mthead

Senior Member
Location
Long Beach,NY
gas pipes and panel guts question

I'm not a Mass. Elec. inspector nor have I ever had any experience doing work up there as an electrician.
So my comment here is based soley on what you gentlemen have referenced so far as to 'Rule Three' and it's application in Mass.elec/construction code.
My comment would be this-rule three sounds, unfortunately ,like a "catchall/deny all " rule.
On its face it may seem like it's generality would allow much lattitude to benefit the h/owner/contractor.., etc regarding what is required to be done ..
In other words-What do I need to do to get by?The h/owner needs to sell.They're going to knock it down anyway"...,etc.
Sometimes rules such as this are designed to deflect responsibility[i.e.liability--states often are notoriously careful in rule making].
Call it "The Art of Governance-how to make a rule that really doesn't tell you anything--...,and make you think it does."

The most famous rule of this sort is the one which say's the AHJ has final say.
I've seen the application of that rule-the ahj is the state-you read the state rule and you find that the state as ahj has given the authority back to the local gov't to be applied as they see fit.
The local authority then says to the 3rd party agency its up to you.


So you can't say it but who's actually going to make the determination?
 
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